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Rich Goodale

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 11:11:21 AM »
Jeff

Was that the first time I've agreed with you, or the first time I've agreed with anybody?

Bob

Did I really agree with Maxie B. and not with good ole Josh?


Regardless, I'm making a note to myself to not forget to take my contrary pills tomorrow morning.

Rich

TEPaul

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007, 11:28:45 AM »
"All just guess-work of course. But off Tom P's post: if small bunkers force the golfer to, at least intuitively, blame himself for his troubles maybe large bunkers do the exact opposite,...."

Peter:

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting correctly what you said there---but nevertheless, I'd like to make a small point.

I would not say small hazard features in a sea of fairway area intuitively force golfers to "blame" themselves---I said I think it intuitively would force golfers to "take responsibility for their actions".

Frankly, I think there can be and is a rather large difference between "blame" and "taking responsibilty for one's actions".

In the world of the philosophy of Behr the former is basically negative, it's somewhat defeating to the spirit of the golfer---while the latter can actually be uplifting and exhilerating---in a sense what Behr referred to as "an adventure of the spirit".

By that he obviously meant some architecture, perhaps even very large hazard features that are by their very size inherently hard to avoid, particularly if plentiful choices and area to get around them aren't supplied, are in a sense defeating of the golfer's "spirit".

While on the other hand, something that is smaller, albeit hazardous, in relation to what's around it that the golfer by his very own choice takes on, is exhilerating and an adventure of the spirit---even if he does not succeed and gets in it.

The point is the golfer feels he had so much more of a his OWN choice to avoid it compared to something very large, and for that reason he might feel proud of himself for simply making that adventurous choice and even attempting to defeat it.

Somewhere in this particular line of reasoning, Peter, I think lies the very heart and soul of what the likes of Behr and his fellow travelers were trying to refer to as "strategic" golf and architecture.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:35:15 AM by TEPaul »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2007, 11:28:54 AM »
To my friends and future roommates at GCA.com,

Extrapolating from the world of mythology and the modern myth-making factory that is Hollywood, things you can't see or can barely see rattle the mind far more effectively than those easy to see (assuming you know they're out there), don't they?

Lately I have been reading about story types (not only do dead men tell tales, they  read them!) and relating them to the play and architecture of golf. I think golf relates most closely to two of the seven basic story types: "The Quest" and "Overcoming the Monster."

A bunker's function in a round of golf ideally is to play the monster. At the same time, they are like "tests" intrinsic to the quest template that the golfer must pass to ensure safe passage home. (Theory still needs a little work.)

Monsters loom largest when they are unseen or largley hidden from view. Never underestimate the power of the mind to inflate the monster beyond its actual proportion.

Why, we barely see the shark in "Jaws" before the final reel spools up, and "The Terminator" passes off as a monster an overly-muscled, slow-witted, mechanical actor whose innards we see only at the end!

Things easy to see focus your mind not on fear and thought but on execution - well, perhaps on the low-level, non-executive brain function of avoidance ("flight").

This is why I hate Fridays up here. The movie invariably is one of the "Friday the 13th" installments, and unfortunately not the first one where we never see the murdering mother but are left to imagine some monster of ungodly (sorry!) strength and power. Now that's one scary mutha!

So I say make em like the Road Bunker, which come to think of it is exactly like Charybdis, or the Maelstrom to you Norse fishermen out there, in that its impact extends well beyond its nominal outline.

Peace love,
Desmond Muirhead

Tommy Williamsen

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2007, 11:30:42 AM »
Maybe the question should be, why don't architects make small bunkers more?  I like the look of a cluster of small bunkers.  With one large bunker there is no possibility of being on grass.  Hitting a shot between bunkers can make for some interesting stances and shots.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 11:31:10 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Pallotta

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2007, 11:47:56 AM »
Tom P - you did intepret me right, and I appreciate the clarification/correction. And your last couple of points in particular are a very handy guide for me - thanks.

Mark B - I was hoping and waiting for you to show up, and you didn't disappoint. Very nice work there, Mr. B/M!

I'm not sure, but I think it was Joseph Campbell who said that in one version of the "slaying the dragon" myth, every one of the dragon's scales had a different "thou shall not" written on it, and so the dragon's slaying represented the hero's journey towards wholeness and liberation, i.e. away from the prohibitions of the law and towards to the freedom of the spirit.

Actually, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all. Sorry; please carry on.

Peter

Steve Burrows

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2007, 12:03:06 PM »
I can certainly understand the maintenance perspective, as well as possible client preference for large, flashy bunkers, but it's a rather generalized and unfair statement to suggest that ALL modern bunkers are large.  Witness three separate bunkers at the Warren Course in South Bend, IN, though it should be noted that there are also a number of larger bunkers on the golf course which provide the type of diversity necessary for excitement and greatness in golf, and the environment for that matter

A small, Devil's ---Hole type bunker right in front of the 5th green


Note the relative size of the rake to the left of this first in a cluster of bunkers on the right side of the 15th fairway.  This is truly a small bunker!


Like the 5th hole, the 16th has a small bunker fronting the middle of the green to create strategic interest

...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2007, 12:13:27 PM »
Rich,

I think its the first time ANYONE has readily agreed with me here, not just you!  That   :'( brought tears to my eyes!  :'( and may possibly be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me here....... :o

Anyway, I haven't read the back and forth between Behr and Crane (sounds like a law firm) on bunker subjects, but it fits given Mac's bunker scale compared to some others.  Add in the writing (Tillie, I think) about "man's efforts being puny in comparison to nature" and I think that basically, by the Golden Age, they just realized that early architecture was too small in scale, as well as too rudimentary to be great.

Lastly, as a sign those guys worked on a similar scale, someone could look up the quote I vaguely remember about "Greens not having to be too large - 10,000 SF ought to be enough" in one of the Golden Age books.  We think of that era courses as having small greens (and also tend to restore to that) but in fact, their greens were modern sized and just grew in by nearly half over the years.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Norbert P

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2007, 12:18:39 PM »
 Nice writing and picts, fellers.

  Here are a few bunkers "just large enough for an angry man and his niblick."



Hooded bunkers on the 17th fairway at Bandon Dunes

 
12th hole  revetted bunker

Ya know, I went through the Bandon Dunes hole-by-hole photo gallery and I'd forgotten how elegant that course looks and how small yet effective the bunkers are.  It's good to see that some appreciation of this subtle style of bunkering is still being constructed - at Renaissance Club, for example.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 12:33:14 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2007, 12:24:30 PM »
Having been called a "potty mouth" many times, it's nice to see my status elevated to the honorific of "Mr B/M."

Mr B/M says to all, don't worry, everything will come out all right.

I say the best manifestation of that dragon's scales are Tiger in both Opens at The Old Course. Eight times the quest conquered: every bunker slain, no matter the outward or inward leg of the Odyssey.

A worthy hero if ever there was one.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2007, 12:25:54 PM »
Slag,

I do think that Pete got critiqued for some of his small pots where you couldn't even swing. To a certain degree, perhaps larger bunkers are deemed to be  "fairer" in that regard.  I recall consulting a club where they felt their fw bunkers were fair, as they were too deep to get to the green.

In fact, they actually had "too much shape for their size" and no matter where you were in the bunker, you were too close to the edge to do much other than wedge out.  There is something to be said for a bunker and slope combo that allows the ball to roll back enough from the edge to play a reasonable shot at least most of the way to the green.  

I believe Ross took great care to achieve this in his bunkers, no?  So, the bigger bunkers may be an extension of that kind of thinking.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2007, 12:41:55 PM »
Now that you mention it, when I put in the very small pot bunker at the front right of the fifth hole at Ballyneal, my associates were aghast because it was so small and "out of scale".  Luckily I didn't listen to them ... I just thought there needed to be a hazard in front and with the stuff to both sides, the bunker didn't need to be very big at all.  But it only took about 3 rounds of golf before I wound up with the bunker precisely between my ball and the hole.

TEPaul

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2007, 12:45:32 PM »
"I think its the first time ANYONE has readily agreed with me here, not just you!  That  :'(  brought tears to my eyes!  :'(  and may possibly be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me here.......  :o

Aww, Jeff, I'm sorry to hear you think that may be the first time ANYONE has readily agreed with you on here.

Henceforth, I'll agree with everything you say---even before you say it.

TEPaul

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2007, 12:50:54 PM »
"But it only took about 3 rounds of golf before I wound up with the bunker precisely between my ball and the hole."


AH HAH. You see that! That little booger of a bunker flat-ass tried to lay an INDIRECT tax on you that time, didn't it Mr. Tom Doak?

The question is, did you end up having to pay a direct tax or did you evade it?

Tom_Doak

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2007, 01:30:06 PM »
Tom:

I was about ten feet from the bunker, pitching over ten feet of bunker (if that -- it's really small) to a flag about 15 feet on the other side.  I played the neatest little flop shot I've hit in about five years (it used to be my strong suit but now I stink at it) and made my three.

TEPaul

Re:Why are all the modern bunkers so large?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2007, 02:39:10 PM »
"Tom:
I was about ten feet from the bunker, pitching over ten feet of bunker (if that -- it's really small) to a flag about 15 feet on the other side.  I played the neatest little flop shot I've hit in about five years (it used to be my strong suit but now I stink at it) and made my three."


Double AH HAH, Mr Big Shot Architect!!

That's the kind of thing me and Maxie Behr claim creates a true "adventure of the spirit". It seems like you felt just as proud as a peacock of yourself--the golfer, and if I were you I would too. And that's what architects should do for golfers or supply for them.

Did that make you instinctively say to yourself: "Boy, this architect is really cool to have thought of something like that little bunker and how this shot might come about."

Hey, wait a minute. You're the architect of this course, right? Well how could you think that of the architect then?

This is getting pretty weird.

OK, then, let me ask you the flip side.

Have you ever played one of your own courses and got tangled up adversially in some architectural feature or concept and instinctively said to yourself:

"The f...ing architect of this golf course is worse than a bag of rotten potatoes?"



 

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