The Evolution of Rye Golf Club (very long!)

[Paul_Turner]

A couple of weeks ago I posted a question regarding the evolution of Rye Golf Club; it was a short thread, with probably more questions than answers.  But since then, I've tracked down the club history "Rye Golf Club the first 90 years" by Denis Vidler (1984).  I haven't read many club history books, but this must rank right up there with the best.  Plenty of great stories and most importantly (to me) a detailed account of how the course evolved.  And this course has gone through some changes, to say the least!

Here are the two maps in the book.





The 1977 map is essentially indentical to today's layout.  Apart from the flooded quarry on the eleventh.
 
Harry Colt designed the original course in 1894 and here is Denis Vidler's account of how the course evolved:

1907 Alterations

Colt’s design produced two unequal halves, one of eight holes, played as the first half, the other ten holes, played as the second.  In 1907, in order to balance the two halves, one short hole was abolished in the longer half and one added to the other.  The two halves, now equally balanced, were then changed around and renumbered, the tenth hole becoming the first.

The 1907 alterations depended on finding a suitable site for a new short hole in what was then the first half.  The way to this discovery was opened by the decision to reclaim land “on the shore to the south of the sandhills” in order to lengthen the hole that became the thirteenth by taking play over the hill.  Until then this hole was a mere 250 yards in length, the green falling short of the sandhill on the narrow neck of fairway where a cautious second shot to the thirteenth hole now finishes.  In 1905, when the idea was first mooted by C.W. Archer, Chairman of the Green Committee, the land in question was at times under water, and Archer’s bold concept not surprisingly met with a sceptical response from the Main Committee.  Archer finally won his way on condition that part of the cost-£15 out of the £85-should be contributed by members who would be repaid “in the event of the experiment being successful”.  Clearly a case of the proposer having to put his money where his mouth was.

For a time the success of the experiment seems to have hung in the balance and opponents of the idea named it “Archer’s Folly”.  Darwin was not one of these, for writing in 1907 he praised the idea as “the famous sea hole which one of our benefactors, Clement Archer, invented so that we used to call it “Archer Field”… the second shot has to be played over an imposing range of sandhills into space.  We pass up the mountains to see a vast green surrounded by a sea wall.

It was no doubt also Archer who, having taken play over the hill, saw how to bring it back to the hinterland and to create the new short hole, to become the fourteenth.  A position for the tee was a chosen on top of the hill alongside the thirteenth green and, 140 yards distant on the opposite hillside on unused land, a site was selected for the green; not now easy to identify, but somewhere in the fairway of the present ninth hole.

The arrival of the new fourteenth hole opened the way for another important change, a new tee for the next hole, which lengthened it and created the fifteenth as we know it today.  Before 1907 this hole was also a mere 250 yards in length, the tee situated on the bank alongside the thirteenth fairway.

The disappearance of the short hole on the other half, described by Darwin as “an extremely futile hole”, was not only good in itself but brought other benefits.  The hole that was to become the third, which had shared a green with the short hole, was lengthened, the fairway turning sharp left at the Coastguard Cottages and crossing the road to a green on the sandy spit of land now used for grazing donkeys.

The other hole to benefit, the hole running parallel to the third but in the opposite direction, was the seventh, which swallowed up the yardage of the short hole, thereby increasing its own to 500 yards.  Like the third it was a dog leg, the fairway following the flat land, the green on the bank between the present fourth green and fifth tee.

The single surviving hole of this half, the present fifth, underwent its one and only change in 1907.  The green, previously in the valley below the tee, was raised to it present position on the hill. This suggestion is credited to R H de Montmorency during his Captaincy in 1902.

One of the original holes which deserves special mention is the first.  It was no easy proposition as an opening hole.  There was a ditch in front of the tee which ran the length of the fairway; another water hazard protected the green; and the Camber Road dissected the right hand side of the playing area.

The 1907 alterations were made on the recommendation of the Green Committee under the Chairmanship of Clement Archer, without expert advice.  When rather late in the day, in 1909, James Braid was called in to cast an eye over what had been done, his opinion fortunately was entirely favourable.  Writing in 1907, Darwin too had commented favourably on the changes, concluding his article with these words: “It is possible for the unkind critic to call the course short.  It now measured 6,446 yards, but apart from the mere question of yards, it has the genuine undeniable quality of a first class course.”

[Paul_Turner]

Darwin also commented on each hole of this version of Rye : shown in the first map.

First Hole: 340 yards

“We must try to lay down our tee shot between the road to the right and the ditch on the left, beyond which is out of bounds territory…The second shot…is played up to a wavy green guarded in front by a cross bunker, on the right by a stream and on the left by some railings.”

Second Hole: 430 yards

“A good two shot hole, with a tee shot to be steered and a well guarded green, but not lending itself to description.
“
Third Hole: Approx 400 yards

“The tee shot has to be played with considerable accuracy as near as possible to the road which skirts the out of bounds field.  Then the player turns nearly at right angles to the line he has been pursuing and play some sort of long iron to a green well beset with hummocks and bunkers.”

Fourth Hole: 158 yards

“A pretty iron shot to a green with a low hill in front and a bunker eating its way in on the right hand side.”

Fifth Hole: 378 yards

“We sidle along a grassy rampart with a drive and then home with anything from a brassie to a mashie.  The straight ball is helped towards the hole, but the crooked shot gets ruthlessly kicked away.”

Sixth Hole: 409 yards

“It is a fine two shotter especially against the breeze.  On the left are sandhills: on the right the grassy rampart of the previous hole and various bunkers; right ahead at about 250 yards from the tee is a green hill.  The perfect tee shot ends a little way short of the hill and the second shot must be straight and finds a lovely green, keen and delicate to welcome it.”

Seventh Hole: 500 yards

“We play a long hole, rather on the instalment system, up on a gently terraced grassy hillside… I had the questionable pleasure of playing it in the teeth of genuine hurricane and can confirm proudly that I did it in a well played eight.”

Eighth Hole (now the fifth): 165 yards

“A truly noble hole it is-from a high tee across a chasm to a plateau green, with a drop into nothingness on either side of it.  How the wind can blow on that tee, blow especially on our backs so that we tumble on our noses and slice to glory.  This is a really great short hole.”
Darwin’s words are as true today as they were then, although with the passing of the years, the green has sunk and has lost some of its fierceness.  At one time it was slightly convex in shape and only the perfectly hit straight shot stayed on the surface.

Ninth Hole: 350 yards

The most hazardous of the road holes, with the road directly in range from the tee.  

“A thrilling blind shot over the sandhills and a curly corkscrew approach to an undulating green at the back door of the “Billy”.”

Tenth Hole: 320 yards

The road, to this day a hazard from the tee, was then in play from tee to green.

“On the right is the ubiquitous road and all the ground runs to it.  With the wind from the left there is no limit to the number of ballas we may slice out of bounds.”

Eleventh Hole: 346 yards

“A capital second to a plateau green, having a magnitude cabbage patch on its left flank, a bunkered hollow in front and a baby railway line behind.”

The cabbage patch was attached to a tiny cottage, its position marked today by the out of bounds area.

Twelfth Hole: 380 yards

“A good four, with a natural plateau green well guarded on either hand by the natural fall of the land.”

Thirteenth Hole: 473 yards

“The drive is, as regards to room, comparatively simple; the second is awful.  The ground is hard, flat and unfriendly, I know of no other brassy shot I fear more or miss oftener.”

Fourteenth Hole

“An iron shot across a sandy, bent waste to a high plateau green, modelled in some degree on the High hole at St Andrews, with a deep and formidable imitation of “Strath” on the right, another bunker on the left, and a third behind to simulate the Eden.”

Fifteenth Hole: 408 yards

“A very good two shot hole with rough and broken country everywhere where we ought not to go.”

Sixteenth Hole: 429 yards

“As fine a hole as can be found.  We had better not think too much about fours but take a five and be thankful.”

Seventeenth Hole

“After this (sixteenth) splendid hole the seventeenth falls rather flat, although the bunkers do rage furiously together round the green”-marked today by the special verdant area in the centre of the tenth fairway.

Darwin ignored the real hazard of this hole, the deeply rutted track to the right of the fairway, churned up by the fish carts playing between Camber and the river.  There was no relief from the ruts and many a match or score came to grief in them.

Eighteenth hole: 320 yards

“The towering black board bunker…which frowns down on the player as he stands tremulously beneath it on the teeing ground.  If we are over it and have not run down a steep place into sand and bents on the right we play our second along a fairly narrow alley-way to the green.  If we hook we shall bombard the Clubhouse windows, which are barred against our attack, and if we slice-but do not want to be an alarmist.  At any rate it is a great hole and a great ending to a great course.”

[Paul_Turner]

So now for the next bout of changes:

By the summer of 1925, traffic was imposing on the road holes and it was clear that something should be done.  H.S. Colt now a practising golf architect, was called in by the Committee to advise and proposed that in order to leave the course intact, the road be diverted.

In theory, at least, diversion was a possibility now that the Club owned the freehold of the fields to the north of the Camber road, but on grounds of expense was clearly out of the question.  It is said that an offer from a wealthy member to finance the diversion was turned down by the Committee.  Whatever the truth of the story, the Committee sat tight for another four years, despite the ever increasing traffic and the odd shattered windscreen, finally deciding that James Braid might have the solution to their dilemma.  When consulted, Braid advised not surprisingly that the course not the road be altered.

Braids solution was without doubt the one the Committee had all along hoped to avoid, and for another two years they stalled, hoping for a miracle and even making a last ditch attempt to save the course in 1931 by resurrecting the Colt plan.  But it was too late, by then the summer traffic had built up to as many as four thousand cars a day and action could no longer be delayed.  If there was to be any doubt on this score it was soon dispelled by a legal opinion which warned that a serious accident might lead to a court injunction forbidding play within a considerable distance from the road.  The Committee threw in the sponge, minuting that “it reluctantly agreed that the time had arrived for the alterations to the course to avoid the nuisance of the road”.

1932 Alterations

Once taken, the decision was quickly implemented.  Golf Architect, T. Simpson was commissioned and his plan was put to a Special General Meeting on 13 January 1932 and passed.  Work was quickly begun on the alterations and by the end of the year Simpson’s new holes and changes to existing holes were completed and in play:

Simpson’s brief was limited to suggesting only such changes as were essential to give motorists a reasonable, but not absolute, degree of protection from golf balls.  That this was the object and no more is evident from the fact that even to this day the first, third and tenth holes run close and parallel to the road.  For certain holes, those crossing the road, radical surgery was unavoidable, the first and ninth totally excised, the third partly truncated through the loss of the dog-leg approach and the green itself.  The other road hole, the tenth, suffered no surgery, the fairway being shifted inwards from the road.  Then there was the knock on effect of these alterations on other holes, such as the short fourteenth, which was totally excised in order to make room for the new ninth; on the seventeenth, which lost its green to the tenth fairway and was shortened; and to a lesser extent on the sixteenth and eighteenth holes whose original tees had to be replaced.

Including a sum of £600 allotted to install a fence along the road, the cost of the alterations was £2100, half the amount being raised from the sale of a field for a housing development, the remainder coming from an issue of eighteen £50 debentures.  That the money was well spent, Bernard Darwin for one was in no doubt.  Writing in 1934 in a booklet entitled The Rye Golf Club he said, “Mr Simpson has done his work so ingeniously that no essential virtues of the course have gone”.  Darwin was a member for the Sub-Committee which chose Simpson for the job.  It was natural for him to support his man,  Many members were less sure and grumbled in particular about the first and fourteenth holes, each destined to disappear in a few years.  But certain of Simpson’s creations, the third green, ninth and seventeenth holes and the eighteenth tee, showed imagination and have stood the test of time.

The greatest difficulty facing Simpson was how to fit a new first and a truncated third hole into a stretch of land lying between the clubhouse and the Coastguard Cottages, when a large part of the area was already taken up by the second hole.  In order to avoid interference with the second, Simpson sited the first green some 100 yards forward of the second tee and to the right, on what is now the section of fairway adjacent to the fifth green; and placed the tee on what was until recently the plateau alongside the trolley shed.

Simpson himself was proud of this 378 yard hole, and was quoted as saying “this will be the finest strategic hole of its length that I have ever seen”.  The tee shot was indeed a formidable challenge, only the longest hitters going for the carry over the hill; the second shot to the raised green was less distinguished and not many people shared Simpson’s high opinion of the hole.  Yet even then a good hole was struggling to get out, as Sir Guy Campbell was about to demonstrate five years later when he created the present first.

Also pinched for space by the second hole, in this instance by the green, the new third was a mere 292 yards in length, the tee well forward from its present position and the green where and as it is now.  On this occasion Simpson showed great skill in constructing a green of tantalising character, though some of today’s subtleties, such as the sleepers to the right and left of the green were later Campbell touches which replaced Simpson’s bunkers.

The next five holes escaped unscathed, we come to the ninth, the second hole to disappear lock stock and barrel; all that remains to remind us of this adventurous hole with its blind drive is the practice green by “the Billy”.  Here there was a right and simple solution, to finish the first half near the clubhouse, with a hole heading due west from the eighth.  Of the two obstructions, the green of the short fourteenth was easily dealt with, the other, the ladies clubhouse, was an immovable object which caused Simpson to place the green short of where he might have wished.

However, be that as it may, Simpson’s ninth, shorn of a few bunkers converted to green hollows to right and left of the fairway, is still with us, a deceptive 300 yards and with a wicked green where the expected three all too often ends up as a five.

Then on the tenth hole, where all that was required was to shift the fairway from the vicinity of the road and resite the tee near the flagstaff on top of the hill, the green unchanged and remaining near the road short of the main patch of gorse.

This change did no harm to the tenth, but the fairway in its new position overran the seventeenth green and brought the eighteenth tee and its great sleepered bunker in line of fire from the tenth hole.

Simpson had little choice other than to make the seventeenth into a short hole, bringing the tee forward and siting the green in the valley where it still is.

For the eighteenth he selected the present position for the tee on the bank above the previous green, this bringing into play the buckthorn on the right and the pit on the left.  As a consequence, the sixteenth tee was pushed off the high ground to the right hand side of the fifteenth green.  Some years later, the sixteenth tee was resited to its present position.

None of these changes was seriously damaging: the sixteenth tee lost some of its ferocity; the short seventeenth, though never free from criticism, has survived as a hole of unusual character; and Simpson’s tee at the eighteenth undeniably had the effect of changing a good into a great finishing hole.

Simpson’s least happy and most controversial solution was the siting of the new fourteenth hole, to replace that swallowed up by the ninth.  It was 139 yards in length, played from a position near the existing fourteenth tee to a valley green just short of the fifteenth tee.

Good golfer condemned it as fluky, a crooked shot as like as not breaking off one of the side banks and finishing near the hole.  Moreover, it was a blind shot and this and its fluky quality led to it undoing.  However while it lasted it gave pleasure to lesser golfers…

The displeasures of the good golfers won the day, reinforced it is alleged by a strong protest from two former Captains… The Committee, bowing to pressure, decided to switch allegiance and summon another architect, Sir Guy Campbell, to redesign the hole.  This, his first commission at Rye, also marked the beginning of his long and fruitful partnership with Arnold, which was to create for the benefit of future generations six superb golf holes.

[Paul_Turner]

We can gain some impression of Sir Guy and of his intuitive method of working from this account by Arnold of their first meeting: “Sir Guy took me along to the present green and there was at that time a small sand dune which ran back to the approach.  He said “I would like to see a green that had fallen out of the sky and flattened that dune”.  We shaped up the floor and when he came down again I can see him now with his arms held high, “Wonderful, marvellous, just what I wanted”.  He then suggested putting in small sleepers to make the players lift the ball from the hollow.  We went on and completed the green as it is today.

1938 Alterations

Campbell’s fourteenth hole won universal acclaim and it is not surprising that his supporters were soon pushing for him to have the chance to improve Simpson’s first half, especially the first hole and the unsatisfactory fairway sharing arrangement for the third and seventh holes which Simpson left untouched.  Campbell was not loath to have a go and when asked in 1936 to suggest ways of improving the short fourth, he presented a comprehensive plan of alterations to both halves.  The stunned response of the Committee to such a presumption can be imagined.  Fortunately the forceful advocacy of Brigadier M. Kemp-Welch DSO the Captain in 1936 and a strong Campbell supporter, convinced them that his solutions for the first half were both imaginative and necessary…

Campbell’s bold imagination had perceived something which Simpson seems to have missed, that the only way to reach a satisfactory solution for the first half was to break out of the narrow strip of land between the road and the ridge within which the first three holes and much of the seventh fairway were compressed.  Perhaps Simpson failed to realise that the plateau on top of the ridge, though sandy, could with help be brought into play as a fairway for the seventh hole-now the fourth.  It is also unlikely that he looked to seawards of the ridge, where picnickers and sunbathers used to frolic, and realise that there was land suitable for golf.  Campbell ,on the other hand, having first become aware of the need, then proceeded to discover its solution and in doing so created four new holes, the modern first, fourth, sixth and eighth.

The consequences of this bold initiative were several.  The original second hole was swallowed up in the first, and its disappearance made room for the third to be lengthened by bringing back the tee.  The original short fourth to the east of the Coastguard Cottages became redundant and was scrapped; and in order to introduce a second short hole for the first half, Simpson’s ninth was shortened by placing the tee on the hill, 150 yards forward of its present position.  The remains of the forward tee are clearly visible to this day.  With two holes disappearing, second and fourth, and two new holes appearing over the ridge, every hole apart from the first and ninth was renumbered, to be renumbered yet again after the war when the two holes to the east of the Coastguards Cottages disappeared.



Next there a several pages discussing how the war impacted the course, how the club nearly went under from financial difficulties and the necessary course changes to keep the club solvent!

The first chance to raise some much needed cash came in 1946 by selling the land occupied by the pre-war fifth and sixth holes (later renumbered third and fourth) to the County Council for a car park.  The wartime use of this land as a battle school had done nothing to improve these holes and the new Secretary, Major H.C.Tippett, who had taken over in November 1945, after being invalided out of the Army, persuaded the Committee that their disappearance would be no loss and that two short holes in their place would improve the course…

The main job of restoring the course (from the war) was completed during 1946, with work continuing to make the two new short holes.  Major Tippet had picked the sites (Geoffrey Prentice remembers Tippet standing on the dune on the left of the present sixth green and hitting a four iron into the opposite hill and saying as the ball landed “that’s where we’ll have the green”) and instructed the bulldozer to carry on with the job.  The second hole presented no great problem, merely a matter of moving earth and shaping the green, but Tippet’s seventh was a major task.  To quote Arnold again: “The mound where the bunkers are ran right across, so we had to move it.  The hollow on the left of the fourth was eight feet lower than it is now.  As we had to push the dune somewhere, it went in there and raised it to its present level.”  Arnold remembers the fateful last occasion that Tippet visited the site in the company of the Dean of Ely, the Rev Lionel Blackman: “The Major stood looking out to sea and he seemed ill.  I mentioned to the Dean that the Major looked unwell and the Dean took him back.  After about half an hour they found the Major on the floor of the office and phoned his wife.  He recovered for a day or two and one day sent for me to go to the office.  He apologised for not giving me the support to get the course back into play after the war.  We shook hands and I suggested that he get well soon to make up for what he missed.  That was the last time I saw him.  He died in two days and never saw the green finished as it is today.”

Although Tippet did not live to see the completion of his handiwork, he left an abiding memorial to his skill as a designer of golf holes in the second and seventh, and improving on Sir Guy Campbell’s fourth by bringing back the green to its present position.

Vilder doesn’t mention it, but now with two short holes in the first half, Simpson’s ninth must have been returned to its original short par 4 length.


As the fifties drew to a close there was one item of unfinished business to be tackled on the course: the tenth hole.  This was not a good hole, the green too close to the road, the length too much like the ninth.  Sir Guy Campbell had proposed in 1937 to lengthen the hole by cutting a fairway and green out of the gorse.  The plan was revived in 1958 and put to the members at a Special General Meeting and approved.  The Campbell/Arnold partnership went into action for the last time, to produce the modern tenth, a hole which bears comparison with their best; the green first designed by Campbell and then lengthened by Arnold, a typical example of the Campbell touch.  The tee was brought down from the top of the hill, on the left hand side of the eighteenth fairway, to where it is now, some twenty yards forward of the tee position of the 1920s and earlier.  With the lengthening of the tenth hole, the eleventh tee which was situated on the near side of the gorse was moved from there to its present site…

The alteration of the tenth hole marked the end of the seemingly ending process of course changes which, starting in 1907, at one time or another affected to some extent each hole on the course save two-the present fifth and twelfth holes.  For over twenty years the course has remained unaltered despite the ever rising tide of traffic on the Camber Road and the vast increase in summer visitors to Camber.  Long may it continue to be so.

There has been one small but notable change since Vilder’s book but it is included as a prediction:

The removal of gravel from the right of the eleventh hole will not only produce income for the Club, but will leave behind a sizeable lake, creating an awesome water hazard that will stretch from tee to green.  Many years ago one of the younger members expressed the hope that, “one day we shall see swans swimming on a lake to the right of the eleventh fairway”.  It may well be that his wish is to be fulfilled.

We know it has been!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
That is a fascinating account. After absorbing the evolution and playing the golf course what is your opinion of what the original course may have been like? What were the best changes, any good holes or features that were lost, any questionable changes? It sounds like Campbell deserves a great deal of credit or would you say it was gang effort and they all deserve some credit?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I wish I had read this history before playing the course.  I would have checked out the area beyond the Coastguard Cottages (it didn't look like a car park from the satellite image in the earlier thread) to get a better idea of the holes since abandoned.  

I have no real way of gauging how good those original holes were, other than the contours and Darwin's account suggesting that 4,5,6 (6 especially) were appealing. The same is true for the 1st since, I have no knowledge of the green other than Darwin's interesting "wavy" description.

I would love to have seen Colt's 9th. I'm sure it was a thrilling hole. I can picture it to a certain degree, a blind tee shot over the dune ridge down to heavily contoured terrain.  Not sure about the green site next to the "Billy"-I didn't use the current practice putting green.

Campbell's current fourteenth is a difficult, subtle hole.  But I think Archer's (Eden) fourteenth would have been more exciting.  I can almost picture the hole and it was routed over some excellent terrain.  But Simpson's 9th hole is so good, I can understand why it was sacrificed.

In my mind (and most peoples it appears!) Simpson's fourteenth seems to be very eccentric, in the Painswick vein with its blind shot to a bowl green.

Taking the 13th hole over the dune ridge was one of the best changes (by Archer).  It's now a great Alps hole.  From the book, it appears that Colt didn't have the option of going over that ridge because of flooding issues.  The book describes Archer's hole as being surrounded by a sea wall.  This isn't the case now-look at the second map and the Jubilee course-the sea has been retreating at a remarkable rate!

Colt's fifteenth was lengthened because of this change and I think it is definitely a stronger hole now.  Although the original hole, even at only 250 yards, would have been a good short par 4 to a green before a narrow neck of fairway.

The original sixteenth might have been marginally better.  This hole hasn't changed much but I think the original drive angle directly down the dune/ridge line might have been slightly more interesting and difficult (as suggested in the book).

Obviously the loss of the Soup Bowl bunker at the 18th tee shot 18th was significant.  The book favours the longer, current hole and it's a very difficult call.  Just depends if you like the quirk and intimidation of hitting over a huge bunker.  The longer, current hole is more difficult for the strong player but doesn't offer excitement of that carry off the tee.

As for the current course, overall, I think you have to say it's a gang effort; there are just too many changes and combined contributions to holes, to give one designer the bulk of the credit.

My gut instinct is that the current course is the best so far. I can't imagine that the first few holes and those beyond the Cottages were better (or even as good as) than the great 2,4,6,7 contribtutions by Campbell and Tippet. 





  

[Craig Disher]

Paul,  
Thank you for a fine piece of work.  

I always wondered why the club built such a well-designed greensite for a practice area.

The way the front 9 wound around the cottages is fascinating. The area just to the east of them is a car park that has been well flattened over the years. I doubt there's any evidence of the old holes.  I'm not so sure about the areas across the road. They are used as grazing land now and may still have traces of the old greensites.  

I can't read the yardage distances from the pictures. Can you post them or send them to me?  If I find the time this summer, I'll try to snap some pictures of the routing of the old holes and share them with the group.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Just played Rye last week.  Was fortunate enough to play with the Secretary, John Smith.  He told me that 16 is an original Colt green.  It is a great green with more undulation than most of the others.
In all I thought the par 3s were more dramatic and varying than Swinley Forest.  I one I didn't want to leave was the 17th.  What a match play hole.  I loved the green and different possible hole locations.  But when you are with the club secretary, a former track and field man, the round will be no longer than 2 and a half hours, so I had to go to the 18th tee.  We came to the 4th and he said, "I have hit driver, 3 wood, 3 iron and even 5 iron off this tee, and I still don't know what is best.
The wind was about 20 miles an hour, two club wind.  I would hit a good drive, he would hit a low ball with little air time and we would be right together.  His chipping around the green was something to watch.  My first thought was that the greens were lacking some interest, probably the way people think when playing Riviera for the first time.  But whenever I missed, he said, "they have subtle breaks."  In the winter he said they run as high as 12.5 on the stimp.  So maybe they need to be reasonably flat.  He showed me the putter's cup, trophy and pictures, Bernard Darwin chair and yes Margaret Thatcher was not allowed to dine in the men's room when Prime Minister.  Progress continues on the Jubilee Course.  With the ocean receding, I suspect they will have 36 holes there someday, though environmental concerns are high.  Apparently the reason the great old bunker on 18 is no longer there is it was used to house an anti aircraft gun during WWII.  After the war rather than remove the gun I think they just filled the hole so that now it is just a big swale.
In all the ground game is alive and well.  Put those Ryder Cup players out and it would be something to see, a birdie shoot out but some great shot making.
Rye, "where the toughest shot on the par 3's are the second ones."

[Lynn Shackelford]

Dave, the 4th is a strange one.  I was playing 2 and 3, but the 4th was on my mind.  A most narrow landing area, little or no layup area.  I think I made 5 and was not unhappy.  The day I played it the wind was right to left, not the prevailing wind.  But it was windy being on top of the dune.

[Paul_Turner]

Lynn

I think the great strength of Rye is hole variety; like many have pointed out before, it's the way the holes are routed around the dune lines which gives the course this variety.

Interesting that you like the 17th; most think it's the weakest link.  But the green is quite unusual, the way it slopes towards those three(?) pot bunkers.