Which courses in the country have a shot at number one..

[John Kavanaugh]

No way am I going to say that Lakota Canyon is number one any day any time...30 is a stretch, 200 is stupid.

[JESII]

If you're going to judge based on the group playing in front or behind you, 200 might be low.

Super Bowl Sunday with a ticket to the game means there must be 5 courses in Miami that wcould be in the running based on all the other criteria. Every day will have something else that focuses the pool in a particular area.

[John Kavanaugh]

Which courses will be in contention for #1 on February 4th this year?

Ask me Feb 1st...I'd lay 8 to 5 that Cypress has a shot but I need a better weather forecast to make sure.  If you like a long shot go with Bell-Air at 50 to 1 or Torrey Pines at 500 to 1.

[Tommy Williamsen]

We are not answering the question as posed  "Which courses in the country HAVE A SHOT at number one." The question is not "which courses I think I would like to see in contention but which ones have ashot at it.  Riviera does not have a shot.  I will never happen.
Of the ones I have played more than once these conceivable do
Shinnecock
Oakmont
Winged Foot West
Pebble Beach

Longshots
NGLA
Sand Hills

[David Stamm]

Which courses will be in contention for #1 on February 4th this year?

Ask me Feb 1st...I'd lay 8 to 5 that Cypress has a shot but I need a better weather forecast to make sure.  If you like a long shot go with Bell-Air at 50 to 1 or Torrey Pines at 500 to 1.

I don't think Torrey would be #1 under most circumstances, but if "lack of other golfers" were part of the critieria, Super Bowl would be the day for it to shine. Speaking from expereince, Super Bowl Sunday is the best day of the year to play there, w/ The Masters Sunday a close second. I've had the entire place, all 36 holes, to myself. I could understand how this could influence someone's decision making process, but Torrey is not even a top 10 (maybe 15) course in So Cal. in general.

[Adam Clayman]

It's interesting that each one of these number ones, has tweaking to be done to make them better.

the same number as do today...whatever that number is.

  I do think a course needs a minimum amount of architectural and historical significance to be number one.  

Understand the architectural, but why the historical?

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

Historical significance is important to me personally because otherwise it is just golf.

[Adam Clayman]

Well then, If the question is about you, I'd say 20-30 courses is too short a parameter. The answer is 365 courses could qualify as the best course each day. Or we could go all the way out to saying every course is number one to somebody on any given day.

[tlavin]

Augusta National
Pine Valley
Olympic Club
Sand Hills
Cypress Point
Shinnecock

I really love the Riv, but it doesn't have enough sizzle to be considered a #1 course.  It is a spectacular design, has the best short par 4 in the world, some ingenious short holes and one of the greatest finishing holes in the world, but I think it still somehow falls short.  This is all personal opinion and incredibly subjective, but I think Cypress overcomes its 18th hole (which must be the worst hole on any great course) because of the majesty of the rest of the course.

I might even include LA North, but that is probably because of my great times there more than the overall merit of the course.  I don't include Pebble Beach because there are far too many mundane holes

[David Stamm]

Terry, let me ask you, I have never played Olympic but have had many people tell me that they think SFGC is actually better. I haven't played that either, so I wouldn't know, but this seems to be sentiment of quite a few who play both. What in your mind would make Olympic better since you listed it as a potential #1 for the country. Or is this a personal experience assesment.

[John Kavanaugh]

Well then, If the question is about you, I'd say 20-30 courses is too short a parameter. The answer is 365 courses could qualify as the best course each day. Or we could go all the way out to saying every course is number one to somebody on any given day.

Adam,

In all seriousness the weather in Augusta would have to be awful bad for that to be true.  If Ben Hogan says the 4th at Riviera is the best par three in the country,  Crenshaw says it is the best designed course, the tenth speaks for itself and the architect wrote the book on architecure in this country...I don't feel that given a series of events that would have to include poor conditions at other nearby greats that Riviera could have been the best that four hours I was there. (note: After the round later that night I went to the Bicycle Club and killed, which didn't hurt.)  Cypress or Pebble or ANGC may have been number one last Friday,  I don't know...I just say the Riviera earned a shot that day.

[tlavin]

Terry, let me ask you, I have never played Olympic but have had many people tell me that they think SFGC is actually better. I haven't played that either, so I wouldn't know, but this seems to be sentiment of quite a few who play both. What in your mind would make Olympic better since you listed it as a potential #1 for the country. Or is this a personal experience assesment.

I've never played San Francisco so I am not competent to opine on the issue, but several people have told me that SF is superior.  I visited the club and had lunch and looked at the course briefly and it looked like a Mackenzie gem.  I'd love to cure my incompetence in that regard by playing it sometime next year...

[Garland Bayley]

Adam,

Historical significance is important to me personally because otherwise it is just golf.

Well John, if you are bored with golf, perhaps you can find a city league hockey team to join.
 

[Jerry Kluger]

Gentlemen: I've often wondered why the list changes without any explanation.  Are there significant changes that are made at a course which warrant its moving up the list, or are there changing conditions that warrant a course's dropping down the list?  I haven't played Pine Valley for a number of years but there seems to be some concern with the treeline encroaching into the playing area so perhaps that is a basis for it to drop down.  But is there anything that has been done at Cypress Point, Shinnecock, NGLA, Riviera, etc., that makes them any better and warrants their moving up the list?

[Michael Moore]

Mr. B -

Interesting question, which could be made more so with a comprehensive list of the courses that are closed on Mondays.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

I think for raters like me our criteria change more every year than the courses we eventually see.  There was a time not so long ago that either Pebble Beach or Augusta National had a lock on number one.  Things and I change everyday.  I currently have no idea what course will be number one for me by the end of winter when nary a grass blade has grown on many great courses.  Only one thing remains constant...The collected opinions of others published in a magazine have no more value to me than than the opinions of myselves.

[JESII]

I hope they don't even have equal value, John...maybe a guide post, but nothing more...

[Garland Bayley]

Jerry,

I think for raters like me our criteria change more every year than the courses we eventually see.  There was a time not so long ago that either Pebble Beach or Augusta National had a lock on number one.  Things and I change everyday. ...

I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

...This is not a rating thread - It is an opinion piece.

[John Kavanaugh]

I hope they don't even have equal value, John...maybe a guide post, but nothing more...

I've got happy JB, sad JB, lucky JB, loser JB, tired JB, chipper JB, cynical JB, eternal optimist JB, skinny JB and fat JB all on my panel.  It is a crap shoot who is going to show up on any given day.  Riviera got lucky when fat and happy the lucky eternal optimist showed up..no wonder it did so well.

[JESII]

That's my point...those "myselves" get all of the vote...which is great...and explains my opinion that there may be 200 potential #1's in the country throughout the course of a year.

[John Kavanaugh]

Cynical JB compiles the numbers which protects the intregity of the ratings.

[JESII]

INTEGRITY?[/i]

[Anthony Butler]

Terry, let me ask you, I have never played Olympic but have had many people tell me that they think SFGC is actually better. I haven't played that either, so I wouldn't know, but this seems to be sentiment of quite a few who play both.

Olympic has too many holes that are similar in nature to be #1... the only holes that stand out for me are those on a part of the property that has a great deal of elevation change. i.e. 3, 7, 18. Also for a course that is pretty damn close to the ocean it has very little seaside quality about the course. That's the way the land flows, but compared to the way courses like NLGA, Shinnecock, or Fishers Island are able to make advantage of their location it's a disqualifying factor. SFGC seems to have  more of it, even though it is a mile further back from the coast*

* The integration of the sea is what really separates the great golf courses for me... But that is just the opinion of someone whose car rusted out sittting in the parking lots of various golf clubs.