Out-of-bounds

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks John V for all the clarifications on the rules.

I used to think that I knew the rules fairly well until I tried taking those self-tests on the USGA site.  After only getting half the questions right on the "easy" test, I was then promptly put in my place  

[Chris Cupit]

Chris - isn't it simple enough to just trust that Bobby Jones was correct (there are two different types of golf - tournament and otherwise); and just leave it at that?  That is, strict rules adherence for competitive play, do what you want outside of that.  Of course this gets into handicap legitimacy issues... but I'd leave that to the honor of the player... even though JV is right, the handicap rules even allow for this, as he described a few posts back.

I'd say equipment is a separate issue though - I'm not sure I want bifurcation - emulating the pros is a huge part about what makes this game fun for a whole lot of people.

Thus I'd say leave the rules as they are... they're fine... just don't sweat how they are applied.

TH

I agree that we have de facto bifurcation of the rules--unless it's a tournament almost no one really and truly plays "by the book".

You mention that emulating the pros is a big part of the game but I just think the horse has long since left the barn regarding the "average" golfer coming anywhere close to emulating the pros.  I would let average players use whatever equipment they wanted to but for tournament play I would go farther than just restricting the ball.  I'd go back to steel shafts, wood woods and traditional v-grooves.

Not to belabor the point, but just what part of the game, any part, do average golfers emulate the pros in?  Putting--no--average guy would 3 and 4 putt most any green set up with "tour speeds"; chipping--no way--most never see real rough or firm greens or undulations that the pros do; iron play--some terrific scratch golfers come close as the 4 ioron through 8 iron of the tour pro is actually doable for some--maybe 2%?; wedge play and recovery shots--not even close; driving accuracey and length--not even close.

I see the expense of trying to keep up with the latest technology as a huge impediment to the game and I also believe that the old clubs and balls would be cheaper to make and produce.  If avid golfers wanted to emulate the pros, they could save money by buying the less expensive "traditional" equipment versus the latest titanium whatever.

As you know golf courses have responded to the game FUNDAMENTALLY changing by dramatucally increasing length, rough, green speeds, water hazards etc...  all making the game more expensive and less fun and accessible.

Again, baseball seems to have done a decent job of preserving a game so that what we watch is similar to what our grandfathers watch.  Why couldn't golf have done the same?  Has it really been for "the good of the game" to get where we are today in the game?  Stagnant growth, more expensive equipment, huge (for most) financial barriers to enjoying a great game.

I know I'm dreaming but I'd love to wake up and see "metal woods" used by the guy just out whacking some balls with a rental club at a driving range!

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris:

Sold.  That makes great sense to me.  Those who want to emulate the pros can do so by scaling back, as they do.  Not sure what the hell I was thinking before.

 

[Doug Ralston]

Just so ya know, I do not have a handicap to abuse, and never will. If you go to your average muni, I would wager that less than 20% of those on the course at a given moment has a handicap.

Most people play golf for fun. Many without handicaps also make 'friendly' wagers, but they generally lay down ground rules when the do. Many of us just are not obsessed with scores or comparisons.

Doug

[Cassandra Burns]

I'm glad that the Muldooney revisions quoted by Cassandra didn't include improving your lie.  That is the one thing that bugs me especially when I see guys doing it on every shot.

Um, John, you might want to read Revision #1 again.

[Cassandra Burns]

Huck,

I agree with most of what you say, but if you have different sets of golfers playing by different rules, doesn't that make the current handicap system obsolete?  

Not that everybody turns in all their scores accurately nowadays anyway.....

Scott - I wouldn't say it would make it obsolete; hell the vast majority of these golfers who play with casual self-made rules don't HAVE handicaps anyway and don't play in tournaments.  Those who have handicaps and do play competitively know what to do, and do so...

All I'm saying is don't sweat the rules unless you are going to play competitively - that's the general policy.

I see three different levels of play.  The casual player - also known as "the hacker" - just plays for fun, and I think the Revisions and any kind of equipment is fair game.  Yes, they may make side bets and whatnot, and as long as everyone goes by the same understanding, it's all fair.  

The professionals, well, we know all about them.

In between are those of us who have passion for the game, but not the skill to actually make any money at it.  We are amateurs.  We play in our club tournaments, leagues, regular foursomes or what have you.  We keep our handicaps and play by The Rules as best as we can decipher them.  

I think the time for the casual player to drop the Revisions, keep an honest handicap and embrace amateurism is breaking 90.  Bogey golf is respectable!  I hope.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cassandra:

I think we're on the same page.  If you play in competitions at any level, it just makes sense to use uniform accepted rules, and the USGA and R&A have done a fine job of codifying those, as weird as some situations do get.  So yes, we play in competitions at our own levels and follow the rules to the best of our knowledge and abilities.  All I am saying, and John V is saying as well, is outside of that it truly matters not what a golfer does rules-wise - do whatever makes sense, whatever you find fun.

I'm not sure though that I'd put a score threshold on this.  I know plenty of golfers who can't scare the 80s who want to compete in tournaments.  And if they do this, they need to follow standard rules.  I think I get what you're saying though... at scores above that a little mercy is a nice thing... Well, it just makes sense to save that mercy for non-tournament times.  If they want to compete - and by this I mean in a large field event, not just among each other - then they have to follow the rules.  Outside of that and when just playing their own bounce games, heck whatever floats their boat would seem to be not only wise but the most fun.

TH

[Cassandra Burns]

I see the expense of trying to keep up with the latest technology as a huge impediment to the game and I also believe that the old clubs and balls would be cheaper to make and produce.  If avid golfers wanted to emulate the pros, they could save money by buying the less expensive "traditional" equipment versus the latest titanium whatever.

As you know golf courses have responded to the game FUNDAMENTALLY changing by dramatucally increasing length, rough, green speeds, water hazards etc...  all making the game more expensive and less fun and accessible.

Again, baseball seems to have done a decent job of preserving a game so that what we watch is similar to what our grandfathers watch.  Why couldn't golf have done the same?  Has it really been for "the good of the game" to get where we are today in the game?  Stagnant growth, more expensive equipment, huge (for most) financial barriers to enjoying a great game.

I know I'm dreaming but I'd love to wake up and see "metal woods" used by the guy just out whacking some balls with a rental club at a driving range!

I'd love to see the pros play with different equipment at different tournaments.   Play "Ancient Style" at the really old courses, with hickory and featheries or gutta percha.  Play "Classic Style" at the classic courses, with steel and persimmon and balata.  Play "Modern Style" at modern courses, with graphite and metal and the 1995 ball or something like that.

The equipment manufacturers should love this!  The avid players who *really* want to emulate the pros would end up buying three different sets of equipment!  Old and classic golf courses would love it, since they wouldn't need to lengthen up anymore to host tournaments.  Fans could actually compare golfers from different eras.  The market for used equipment would soar.  It'd be a party.

[Cassandra Burns]

Hi Tom,

Yes, I think we're on the same page.  I was just thinking that - outside of tournament or league situations - those who've never shot bogey golf would be doing themselves a favor by adopting the Revisions.  And I think I would be doing them a favor by *encouraging* them to do so, rather than being a rules stickler, rather than shaming them for doing so.  (Selfishly, we'd also do ourselves a favor by promoting what amounts to faster play!)  

Likewise, I think the avid bogey golfer is doing herself a disservice by not adopting the formal Rules.  I don't know, I just think that if someone can shoot bogey, they've actually got some talent or skill, so why not *encourage* amateurism at that point?

[Tom Huckaby]

Cassandra, that makes absolutely perfect sense - well said.  I'd agree that once one reaches a certain proficiency level at this crazy game, one ought to throw away the crutches and play it by the real rules.  Such will just serve to make one a better player in the long run.

And right on - those who never reach this level would be doing themselves (and us following them) a great favor by adopting the Revisions.  

Just one thing that I was trying to get at:  some of those lesser-skilled players do like to compete in formal competitions; and if so, they need to be ready to play by the real rules.  This is a small sub-set of all golfers, though.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Cassandra, that makes absolutely perfect sense - well said.  I'd agree that once one reaches a certain proficiency level at this crazy game, one ought to throw away the crutches and play it by the real rules.  Such will just serve to make one a better player in the long run.

And right on - those who never reach this level would be doing themselves (and us following them) a great favor by adopting the Revisions.  

Just one thing that I was trying to get at:  some of those lesser-skilled players do like to compete in formal competitions; and if so, they need to be ready to play by the real rules.  This is a small sub-set of all golfers, though.

TH

And to further add to this. If you are shooting in the 90s or higher you are likely not to go bragging about how you "tore it up" on the course.

But when you shoot that nice 81 for the first time ever, it just makes its a lot tougher to brag about it when you know that you took a mulligan and a foot wedge on two holes.

I can play with all kinds of players and I never mind thier own personal styles on the golf course....but when someone is bragging about shooting a great score and at the same time giviing themselves improved lies in the fairways and having 6 foot putts be gimme's, it just rubs me wrong...oh well.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - I get that too, and it bugs me as well.  I have one friend who bragged about how his wife's score beat several of the others guys one outing... but of course he gave her every putt under 10 feet, kicked her ball out from behind trees, improved every lie, etc.  That's all fine and dandy and no one cared at all until he started giving guys crap about losing to his wife.

I'd just say these situations are few and far between - thankfully!

So in general, hell whatever one wants to do outside of competition, go ahead - speeding up play is never going to be a bad thing.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - I get that too, and it bugs me as well.  I have one friend who bragged about how his wife's score beat several of the others guys one outing... but of course he gave her every putt under 10 feet, kicked her ball out from behind trees, improved every lie, etc.  That's all fine and dandy and no one cared at all until he started giving guys crap about losing to his wife.

I'd just say these situations are few and far between - thankfully!

So in general, hell whatever one wants to do outside of competition, go ahead - speeding up play is never going to be a bad thing.

TH

lol...When i was living in Spokane, WA, one of the regular guys we played with did that all the time, but his worst trick was when he would drive his ball OB or in a hazard he would drop one when we weren't looking and say "hey I found it, it stayed in".

And its not like I could really say no to playing with the guy, he was the one of the VPs at the company I was working for at the time.

[JohnV]

I'm glad that the Muldooney revisions quoted by Cassandra didn't include improving your lie.  That is the one thing that bugs me especially when I see guys doing it on every shot.

Um, John, you might want to read Revision #1 again.

It was early.  I missed that.  I am sorry to see that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - that's a sadly common ailment as well... my golf buddies and I came to believe that one of our friends had special made pants with velcro holes in the pockets and triggered pantleg lengtheners for his use at the "right" time.

We still love him though.

 

[Cassandra Burns]

I'm glad that the Muldooney revisions quoted by Cassandra didn't include improving your lie.  That is the one thing that bugs me especially when I see guys doing it on every shot.

Um, John, you might want to read Revision #1 again.

It was early.  I missed that.  I am sorry to see that.

Muldooney goes so far as to suggest within one club lenth, no nearer the hole!  Doesn't that just make you wince?  I know it pains me to suggest it; last year I was practically religious about The Rules.  Maybe now I've come to my senses?  Anyways, I think this one Revision can do more to get the casual hacker hooked on the game than anything else.  Better lies mean more flush shots, and flush shots are the crack cocaine of golf.

[JohnV]

I'm glad that the Muldooney revisions quoted by Cassandra didn't include improving your lie.  That is the one thing that bugs me especially when I see guys doing it on every shot.

Um, John, you might want to read Revision #1 again.

It was early.  I missed that.  I am sorry to see that.

Muldooney goes so far as to suggest within one club lenth, no nearer the hole!  Doesn't that just make you wince?  I know it pains me to suggest it; last year I was practically religious about The Rules.  Maybe now I've come to my senses?  Anyways, I think this one Revision can do more to get the casual hacker hooked on the game than anything else.  Better lies mean more flush shots, and flush shots are the crack cocaine of golf.

Why not just tee up every shot then?

Preferred lies and bumping your ball is bad for the golf course as it means all the good turf gets worn out.

Side story:

At a pro-am that I was working, a fellow official saw an amateur hit his tee shot into some tall fescue.  After some time spent looking, he bent over, pulled the grass apart (2 shots) and then pulled out a wood and whacked it up towards the green.  The official drove over afterwards and found a tee in the ground where the guy hit from (2 more and I might DQ him if I was grumpy).

Since it was an amateur who had payed $2000 to play in this buffalo hunt we said said nothing.  It had been made clear to us that the pro-am was meaningless and our entire job during the pro-am was to keep play moving, not to enforce any rules.

Once the real event started we obviously got much more serious.

[Cassandra Burns]

Why not just tee up every shot then?

Preferred lies and bumping your ball is bad for the golf course as it means all the good turf gets worn out.

That's a great idea!  I'll suggest to any beginniner to tee up every shot, so they won't do too much damage to the course.  I'd even be happy to name Revision 1a after you if you'd like!    

Remember, I'm just talking about beginners and casual high-handicappers, not the avid golfer who can play to bogey golf.  I do advocate the upmost of amateurism for the latter, which in my book means playing it down and by The Rules.

That anyone would pay $2000 for entry into a pro-am and then show such disregard for The Rules appalls me as much you, by the way.  Really!  For that kind of dosh you'd expect some classiness, wouldn't you?

[JohnV]

It wasn't their money, it was their companies or in some cases, they were a customer of the company who paid.

This tournament had two very big companies in the Portland area sponsoring it.  Invitations were sent to all their vendors with instructions to return them to the President of the company.  Who wouldn't buy a spot?

I think that extortion like this goes on at a lot of pro-ams.

The sad thing is that the pro playing with them said nothing, although he might not have noticed.