What do they have in common?

[Tom Doak]

Tom:  I don't mind people asking me questions and challenging my point of view.  I do mind being called "arrogant" for trying to make a point, though that wasn't you.  

I surely never hinted that "my" bunkers are better than the courses I listed above.  As a matter of fact, I was sort of lamenting the fact that no one wants me to build Brookline or Portrush bunkers.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I sure do hope that no one implies that you're arrogant--certainly not on this website! I think you know that the site values your opinions on things on architecture very much, but that should never mean that your answers and opinons aren't questioned and challenged on here. I'm very certain you agree with that--and I'm pretty certain if you were some of us you'd do the same.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,

You didn't see any similarity between Kiawah-Ocean's bunkers and Pacific Dunes'?  When was the last time you saw K-O?  I know for Confidential Guide, it was soon after it opened when the course was pure brute and young (see new 18th pics on different thread).

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I think that you missed something in your analysis. I write this for your info, NOT as criticism. An exhaustive analysis of the type you did is difficult and not surprising that you may have missed a point or two.

The 1999 Golf Magazine World Top 100 had Bethpage Black as #46. In 2001 it moved up to #45.

In your analysis you state "48 of the top 50 have bent grass or fescue/bent greens; Seminole (I think) and Casa de Campo are the only exceptions."

This is incorrect. The greens at Bethpage Black are a combination of Poa Annua and Bent, and should be your 3rd exception.

Other than that, good job on the analysis.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Tom MacWood,

Can there ever be an original hole, or have all the great holes been designed and they either exist, or were a part of the "missing links" described in Wexler's book?  I guess if you fall prey to that conspiracy group you referred to we may have to accept that architecture is just a matter of keeping the great holes (concepts) alive and revive them on new courses.  I am not certain if originality, or new ideas, is easy to discern.  If it is happening today through any of the great architects we may not know it for another 50 years.  I do believe if it is happening it must include profound thoughts about strategy and reverence for nature, or a deep and thorough understanding of the land.  This combination could spawn some original concepts.  I am not certain if the present generation is capable of knowing original work if they see it.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

No doubt there can be original holes - no two site are identical - presenting unique posibilities. My question to you was in response to your criticism of this neo-Classical group and their reliance on borrowed ideas. Your thoughts about "strategy and reverence for nature, or a deep and thorough understanding of the land," appear to be an acknowledgment to what worked best in the past. It seems to me if you follow that borrowed philosophy and add your own personality or flair, you will produce original golf architecture (which seems to be case from the revues of your work).

[Kevin_Reilly]

Phil, the presence of Poa probably doesn't put a course into the exception group...most of the west coast courses have poa as well.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Tom MacWood;

I did not think of it as a borrowed philosophy because I stumbled upon it on my own since I was not a student of the old masters, however as is typical, once you delve into a philosophy or concept you find that other people have already been there, and like you alluded to, there may not be original thoughts just a rehashing of old ideas.  I think there is a big difference between discovering a great idea that has been around through a personal process as compared to mimicking a great idea, and not going through all of the steps to get there that make the process enriching.  So originality may lie more in producing something that was familiar to people but doing it in a way they had not seen before.  The old masters did it right and in a way that should be emulated today.  However, just copying their ideas is not the way to emulate them today; using them as a trump card of criticism against a modern course is not a worthy way to advance their virtues.  Anyway, I guess we have diverged wildly off of the original question in this thread.

[Mike_Young]

I think we all know what Tom is trying to say but I think in order to understand it you need to look at it from 99% of the golfers view.
I just returned from a member guest at a course that I think is top 100 on someone's list.  The members love it and are very proud of it.  The architect is much more renowned than me.  when you speak to Arch afficianados they think of it as plain vanilla.  Bunkers are mainly a couple of loops with a D4and some sand in the bottom.  Yet the stategy that is implemented with these bunkers is very good and is what has allowed this course its notoriety.  While many of us might design differently, this person got the work and much more of it.  Strategically this course is good and therefore like or dislike it will hold up under play from the top golfers.
Several members were pround to tell me how several mounds shaped into fairways were natural dunes.  Great...I would not tell them differently...Accept the fact that most people  are told what to like in this country.  The old mushroom theory.
AND DON'T TAKE THIS A S A SLAM AT ANOTHER ARCHITECT...I HAPPEN TO LIKE THIS PERSON'S WORK IN MANY PLACES....AS A MATTER OF FACT I THINK HE GETS IT...

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Kelly
While we might all admire histories great original minds, I do not believe there is any shame in learning or borrowing from the past. In fact isn’t it true that most original thinkers were also great students of the past. Adopting ideas from the past and adapting them in their own unique way?

The ‘old masters’ did do it right, isn’t that why you refer to them as masters?  That is not to say that there is only one way, it seems to me that they all had there own unique ways, although they shared a similar philosophy - similar to your own - regarding reverence to nature and understanding the land. I have been known to criticize some modern architecture and it has not been for being original or unique, but for ignoring nature and the land. If that is using the past as a trump card in criticizing some modern architects, so be it.

[Phil_the_Author]

[Phil, the presence of Poa probably doesn't put a course into the exception group...most of the west coast courses have poa as well.]

That is true, except that at the Black the Poa is a MAJOR portion of the grass found in the greens, almost to the extent that they are mostly Poa and are listed that way in some publications and by some experts. During the Open Roger Maltbie commented more than several times that "this proves that you CAN have great greens made of Poa!"

In Tom's post with his analysis, he states that (... 48 of the 50 have Bent Grass or Fescue/Bent greens..." after which he mentions the 2 exceptions. Most people are unaware that the greens on the Black are being recognized as being Poa greens because of how much Poa is in them (e.g. Maltbie).

[Tom Doak]

Phil,

I didn't list Poa annua as a separate green type because I don't know of anyone who DELIBERATELY planted the stuff as their green.

In fact, there are varying percentages of Poa in the greens of every single one of the top fifty courses in the world; and I would guess that at least ten of them have more than 50% Poa annua.  But that changes from year to year, and some of them I haven't been back to for some time.

[McCloskey]

Collierville, Tn. has this very strategy.  This is a great hole on a great course.

[Phil_the_Author]

[I didn't list Poa annua as a separate green type because I don't know of anyone who DELIBERATELY planted the stuff as their green.]

Tom, that might be so, but since you did not elaborate I took your comment at face value. Also, whereas it appears that no one would use this grass/weed as a grass to design with, it is VERY INTERESYING to note that during the Open, the greens on the Black Course received universal praise with the majority of players (when asked) stating that the "...greens were the finest they had EVER seen for a major championship venue..." (or variation to these words.

I think it is an important point to consider since Poa Annua is so hard to get rid of and can be so invasive. Obviously Craig & Staff were able to do a wonderful job on these greens that appear to be more Poa than Bent.