The Saguaro Course at We-Ko-Pa (w/ 28 pics)

[Tom Dunne]

Hi guys,

I had the chance to sneak preview Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw's wonderful new course in Ft. McDowell, Arizona a few days ago. I thought I'd stop lurking around gca.com and make myself useful for a change, so here's some of what I saw that day. As you'll see, Saguaro is a unique course on a remarkable piece of land, one that places C&C's talents on full display. For the most part, I've tried to keep my comments to a minimum and let the work speak for itself.

(Yardages below are from the tips. Saguaro measures 6912 yards from the Tournament tees, 6603 from the Back, and so on down to the 5061 yard forward tees.)

#1: 469 yd. par-4


#1: approach


#2: 316 yd. par-4


#3: No photo. 416 yd. par-4

#4: 631 yd. par-5


#4: left side approach through the saguaro "goalposts"


#5: 161 yd. par-3


#6: No photo. One of two holes I forgot to take. 442 yd. par-4

#7: 314 yd. par-4. (Blurry photo directly into sun....drive is blind and uphill.)


#7: Cresting the hill for a short approach.


A broad view from the seventh green.


#8: 515 yd. par-5.


#8 green and some of its surrounds


#9: 137 yd. par-3.


#10: 337 yd. par-4.


A steep falloff to the left of the 10th green. Also note the little protected shelf where the hole is located and the three balls it has repelled.


#11: 197 yd. par-3.


#12: 476 yd. par-4.


Low profile approach to the twelfth green.


#13: 470 yd. par-4 on the diagonal.


#13 approach from out there in the miles-away zone.


#14: 538 yd. split-fairway par-5.


#15: 255 yd. par-3. This doofus obstructs a perfectly good view of a wonderful one-shotter.


#16: 328 yd. par-4 Plays significantly uphill. The sun at its lower angle later in the day rendered these images useless.

#17: 402 yd. par-4.


#18: 508 yd. par-4 (!)


The subtle contours of the open final green site.


I apologize for not taking more shots on and around the greens--there's lots of neat stuff going on there at Saguaro--but I'm just not a good enough photographer to get those shots right....

Hope you enjoyed the mini-tour.

Thanks,

td

[PThomas]

thanks Tom...I look forward to seeing it soon!

[John Kirk]

Very interesting.  Great work, Tom.

My first thoughts looking at the photos are:

1)  That falloff left of the 10th green is interesting and unusual.
2)  I like the way 12 looks.
3)  The saguaro cacti are fascinating, and large.

[Ryan Farrow]

Thanks for posting the pictures. Unfortunately I won’t be able to check it out until I get back from winter break. It will be interesting to see how different this course is to Talking Stick North & South. There is obviously much more elevation change at Saguaro compared to the 12 inches at TS. Hopefully the course will have a completely different feel.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Tom,

Thanks for the excellent tour of the course.  I really like how C&C kept most of the greensites open in the front to allow for bump and run approaches.  And, the greens don't appear to be over-bunkered.  A bunker to one side can often steer you to more subtle trouble on the other side, that's a design feature I enjoy.

I really like the look of #1 and the native area crossing the fairway at what looks like 50-60 yards short of the green.  With it being a long par 4, a poor tee shot will leave many with the decision whether to lay-up or play over the native area.

It's nice to see 4 short par 4's under 340 yards.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Just curious about the split fairway. They are often hard to pull off. How did you see this one working?

Thanks for posting.

[Dave Bourgeois]

So much of the desert golf courses blend together for me, but this looks so low profile from the photos.  Its almost as if they forgot to do some of the typical landscaping that you see in that area.  However, If you had not mentioned the architect I would have never been able to guess.  

I imagine that getting on the ground would give an entirely different perspective.  

[James Edwards]

I agree, if I didnt know the architects, I wouldnt have had a clue who designed it... very low-ket for them id say.... some interesting forms and some average ones from this vantage point... but im sure it looks different on site

[Jim Sweeney]

Mr. Edwards! Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I haven't seen you on here in a while. AS we say in Kentucky, Howdy, y'all.



For any AZ CGAers, I have a starting time Sunday, Dec 17 at We-Ko-Pa at 9:40 am. I have spots available. Message me through the board if you are interested.

[Jim Sweeney]

Tom:  I forgot to say thanks for the pictures. I can't wait to see it in person next week.

[Brad Tufts]

It looks different enough from the "Cholla" course at WKP that I'm sure they will be an excellent combination.

I have played the original layout, and I thought it was quite a treat, this will only make the facility that much better.

[Nick Church]

I am curious.  Is the prevailing thought in desert courses to prevent balls from running through fairway & rough into the desert scrub?  Thusly, a design would avoid setting up for "firm and fast" conditions.  The risk being that it becomes a prototypical target golf experience.

Limited to just these pictures, the course seems flat enough with wide, slow chipping aprons around the greens.  I realize that C&C do not move a lot of dirt and so a desert setting will reflect the naturally flat terrain.  I do see the occasional ripple and wave in the fairways, but the topography looks really inviting for a bump-n-run.

Am I completely missing the strategy?  I am not judging the course --- that's reserved for actual playing experience.  

[Tom Dunne]

A few replies:

Ryan Farrow: I played Talking Stick North a couple of days before seeing Saguaro, and it's a completely different animal. C&C did some cool stuff at TS, as you know, with a pancake-flat site. The par-five 2nd and long par-3 eleventh leap to mind. Saguaro is really on some very appealing rolling terrain. The course is anchored on a fairly large hilltop, which houses the driving range, clubhouse (under construction), and the first and tenth tees, which both play downhill and lead the player off into the foothills in two directions.

Nick Church: I know photographs have a flattening effect, but Saguaro has lots of elevation change throughout, esp. compared to most desert courses. It's not Banff, but it's definitely not Talking Stick. I missed a couple of the uphill holes as they played into the sun. Saguaro's terrain is squarely in my sweet spot, though, as for all of the movement and elevation change it remains a very pleasant walk. This definitely won't be target golf, either. Brand-spanking-new courses usually don't start out firm and fast--I expect it will be sped up, though, as much as a daily-fee facility will allow.

Mike Sweeney: #14 works pretty well, I think, though I'd like to give it a few more plays to really put it to the test. The left side has a lot more room, but the fairway shifts away from you for the next shots, lengthening the hole considerably. There are also a couple of encroaching second-shot fairway bunkers to deal with if the left side is selected. The right side of the fairway is harder to hit, shortens the hole, but it's not the most comfortable angle in the world if a good player tries to reach the green in two---the right side of the green site falls off into the desert.

I really wish I'd been able to provide some images of the greens--there's some very good stuff there that animates some of the flatter, more low-profile holes.  

[Garland Bayley]

...However, If you had not mentioned the architect I would have never been able to guess.  
...

To the bunkers Dave! The bunkers narrow the choice considerably, but perhaps not for long given what Tom Fazio has done recently in Oregon.

[Mike Benham]

Is the Saguro a protected species?

These "3 Amigos" are going to get peppered with balls, and unlike a tree, they are not 90% air.  

I wonder if they will survive the onslaught ...

[RJ_Daley]

It seems like an interesting mix of 1/2 par holes with some very long par 4s and at least 3 very short ones.  Pictures suggest good movement in the fairways that beg a firm surface.

But... do they have one of those deals where they "must" use a certain amount of effluent water?  If so, I could see where the design could be compromised by too soft conditions, particularly from 100yards and in to the greens.  I love the low profile and low cut surrounds of many of the looks of the greens, with obvious continued tribute to Maxwell-like rolls.  The bunkers look more Axeland than Bradley.  

The course looks like it could be "Spike Wildhorse" the desert brother of the more famous Snoopy Wild Horse.

Spike has something in common with the great golf course architect, Pete Dye, inthat they both love "Hogan's Heros" in the afternoon, after a few trips around the construction site in the morning.

[Bill_McBride]

I like the fact that it appears quite walkable, compared to its sister there at We-ko-pa which I found not particularly walkable in spite of what Jay Flemma says!

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, thats good to hear and I look forward to checking it out for myself.

Mike, from what I understand all most all of the Sonoran Desert shrubs are protected and you must transplant them somewhere else on the site. Those Saguaros look like they are in real danger from the angle of those pictures. Hopefully they won't get peppered with golf balls everyday or they wont last that long.

[Tom Dunne]

Ryan,

That's the extreme left-hand side of a very wide fairway. It'll be a minority of golfers who have to play between the two cacti. That said, I saw a saguaro down at The Gallery near Tucson that was directly in the line of the tee box, and the thing was peppered with golf balls that had lodged inside it. It didn't look too much the worse for wear. Cacti are nothing if not tough--especially the "flying cholla", possibly the most evil plant I've ever encountered. You'd know this as an ASU guy, but for those who are unfamiliar with the cholla, it flings its barbed pods at you if you so much as look at it funny. The needles themselves act almost like fishhooks when they get under your skin--they're hell to remove, and painful to boot. They've been removed from the areas near the fairways at We-Ko-Pa, but you'll find 'em out there if you wander too far into the desert.

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