News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« on: December 15, 2006, 09:12:10 AM »
If one looks back over the last 15-20 years it's undeniable the courses and architecture of many of the Golden Age architects have experienced real renewed interest and popularity.

Some say it all began with an article about Tillinghast by Frank Hannigan.

The result has been literally hundreds of old courses going through restoration and restoration interest. Books have been written about most of those old architects. Societies have been formed for them. In a phrase most all of them and interest in them has been riding higher than ever before.

One aspect that seems to be missing is real anlayses of the men themselves, their problems in both work and personally, their weaknesses, and perhaps the less grandiose realities of their lives, and not just their perceived strengths that tend to glorify them.

A few months ago in that architecture archive committee  Michael Hurzdan mentioned that this aspect should be covered better and more comprehensively, if possible, simply because he believes it's interesting. He mentioned how much he enjoyed Philip Young's book on Tillinghast because it included so much more about Tillinghast, the man himself, and not only his architecture.

Tom MacWood wrote an interesting piece on here about George Crump, the man himself, and his background that basically noone had been aware of, and not necessarily his otherworldly single architectural project that's generally been considered the best course ever done. Obviously the denouement and essentially the theme of the essay is that Crump really did commit suicide---a reality that has been rumored forever but never investigated. Why that was, not to even mention that he died that way, is probably an interesting question in and of itself.

I think the one who should be analyzed personally first and the most right now is probably C.B. Macdonald. What most of us know about him personally is he was something of a curmudgeon. But we should know more, I think, about all that may've meant.

Macdonald is generally considered the "Father" of American architecture. But he was more than that. A good case could be made that he was the man most responsible for bringing golf to America in a formal sense---its association, the USGA, its Rules and administration etc---not just a renewed focus on golf architecture in this country.

To look carefully at Macdonald personally I think is to see some of the vague details of a helluva story about American golf, the way it went in many aspects which may not have been the way he wanted it to go. Why was that? What did he really believe about numerous things to do with golf in America?

Everywhere one looks at Macdonald's history in this country after NGLA one can see a man with extremely strong personal opinions, perhaps burning bridges, or withdrawing into some form of dissatisfaction, perhaps even depression, until in the end, apparently he was basically not even welcome at his own golf club--NGLA. Because of his inherent position, particularly early on, if any man should've been the president of the USGA, it was Macdonald. Why wasn't he?

The Merion thread has made it clear to me that more needs to be analyzed about Macdonald, the man. Knowing more about just him may even explain what the real meaning of this reported "advised" may mean. There are little tell-tale signs and indications all over the place---in letters and events that may've been swept under the rug or minimized for one reason or another.

I think analyzing them can and will tell a most interesting story not just about him but about the way golf and maybe architecture too really was in those days and the way it went and maybe even why.

In the end he may even emerge as a greater force than we ever realized. But, at least, he should emerge more real than we, of this era, have ever known him.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 09:22:43 AM by TEPaul »

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 09:30:51 AM »
I think it's a great idea.  To truly understand any historical person or event, it is imperative to understand the people and events that surrounded them/it.  For example, the work of Michaelangelo, and indeed, the man himself, cannot be truly studied outside of an understanding of the Italian Renaissance movement.  Similarly, to understand the work of Macdonald, Thomas, etc., we cannot simply look at the work on the ground (which, as we all know, has probably been altered in past decades), but we must also understand their lives, their personal relationships, their sufferings, and the influences of the world that surrounded them (outside of their professional work), including any number of social influences such as national and world economy, or other artistic movements of the particular historical period being discussed.

I say this and I believe this, but I have also noticed on this site a tendency among participants to downplay outside influences on the work or golf course design.  People often want only to focus on the courses themselves as what is important.  Having said that, I am hoping that this thread will allow these other influences to be explored and discussed.
 
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Mike_Cirba

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 09:35:38 AM »
Tom,

Trying to understand Macdonald without first understanding his right-hand man Whigham is like trying to understand Mr. Burns without understanding Smithers.

Was he a mere tool, a lackey, an extension of Macdonald's personality and will and desires, or did he have his own thoughts, ideas, and goals?   Why did he sublimate his own personality to merely serve in the shadow of the much bigger personality that was Macdonald?   How about as things progressed;  was he jealous of Raynor's increasingly close role with Macdonald, as dreamy visions of "Macdonald/Whigham" were soon replaced by the cruel reality of "Macdonald/Raynor"?   Despite such heartbreak, why did he continue to devote himself shamelessly and slavishly to Charley for the next 30 years, even going so far as marrying Macdonald's daughter just to stay close to him over the years and then at Macdonald's passing, claiming to a then largely ignorant golf world that Macdonald/Raynor had designed Merion?  

Inquiring minds want to know, Tom.   I suggest you get right on it forthwith.  ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 09:40:09 AM by Mike Cirba »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 09:43:28 AM »
Inquiring minds want to know, Tom.   I suggest you get right on it forthwith.  ;)  ;D

Mike --

I'm not so sure "inquiring" is the right adjective!

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 09:53:07 AM »
"Tom,
Trying to understand Macdonald without first understanding his right-hand man Whigham is like trying to understand Mr. Burns without understanding Smithers."

Don't you worry about it Mikey, if we do all this well enough we may even uncover the real story of what C.B's  relationship with DevieE REALLY was.  ;)

About why Whigham may've been a Macdonald toady, it probably had to do with why most sons-in-law are toadies to their powerful fathers-in-law. It not about the money---it's about the money! ;) Macdonald was a natural born disinheritor, apparently. Didn't he disinherit some other son-in-law for threatening to drive the original Cape hole at NGLA and then for having the indelicate hubris to actually do it? That must have been an impressive albeit expensive shot.

Another interesting question about Macdonald may be his money. In other words, did he go through it all? Did he actually ever use his own money on anything he ever did, even NGLA? He said he was an amateur architect----eg what if anything did he actually take from his career in architecture in a remunerative sense? We sure do know that "amateur status" was a very tricky business in the teens for those who worked in golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:03:33 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 10:13:40 AM »
I was born in Albany, NY, to a soup salesman and a farmer's daughter........

How far do I go? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 10:15:51 AM »
Mike:

Seriously, Whigam was probably very valued by Macdonald as an opinion on architecture for the simple reason he was a really good player and good players' opinions seemed to be almost always valued back then. Macdonald knew Whigam's father in Scotland well too.

TEPaul

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 10:19:14 AM »
"I was born in Albany, NY, to a soup salesman and a farmer's daughter........

How far do I go?  :)

That's far enough JeffB---that pretty much says everything we need to know about you and your architectural philosophy with the possible exception of whether your father asked his future father-in-law if he could stay in the barn on his way past his farm.   ;)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 10:30:14 AM »
As Jeff hints (I think), there are two basic types of personal information about architects. One is relevant, the other is just human interest stuff.

Who an architect learned from or apprenticed with, what courses he admired are all relevant to the designs he produced. That will tell us where their ideas came from and how they evolved.

Knowing details of his personal life, including his virtues and vices, is not relevant. It may be interesting, but it's not relevant. That stuff doesn't tie in any reliable way to the kind of work he produced in the field.

I worry that you can get side-tracked with the latter type of information when what you really want is a better understanding of their gca. For that you need to focus on the former.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:32:30 AM by BCrosby »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 11:10:20 AM »
Bob,

Yeah I kinda hinted that.  Knowing where we learned and trained, etc. would be be a help to someone understanding our architecture.  TEPaul hints (I think) that knowing when someone had turmoil in their life (like Van Gogh being a better artist after cutting off his ear, etc.) might help in assessing their work.  

Case in point, I believe that doing my best work in the last few years may have been partly a result of having less desire to go home in a crumbling marriage, so I stayed longer for site visits.  On the other hand, it might just be a factor of having less work overall around 9/11, which allowed me to take control of the designs even more than I was.  

Assessing a career in terms of what the gca was influenced by, how much work he had, etc. would be worthwhile, since great courses come from great opportunities at the right time.  For example, would Tom Doak have done as good a job at Pac Dunes had the op come a decade earlier?  Or would Bandon Dunes be better if Kidd had a few more courses under his belt?  Either way, I know that they would be different.

I suppose knowing gca personalities might also help.  As I posted once, I have taken a personality (the D-I-S-C) test and tested out very highly as a design personality.  If you found that an active gca tested out as an engineer or janitor type, but somehow was stuck in gca, it might explain his more functional, but less inspired designs.

On the other hand, I don't know how many people on this site are truly qualified to assess architecture, but I figure even fewer are qualified to discuss our mental makeup.  Do we need Dr. Phil to analyze all of us?

I have been told the study of history is changing.  Those in the field think there have been enough books detailing what Abe Lincoln did.  If anything new is needed on Lincoln, it it to explain why he did what he did.  In truth, I think someone will eventually do a biography on every gca. Maybe some of the lesser lights will be combined.  Only after the what they did is answered fairly thoroughly will someone turn to why.  

At the same time, this suggests that maybe they should hook the electrodes up to the living architects so historians could get first hand info, rather than speculation from afar.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 12:00:49 PM »
Bob:

I agree that knowing more about architects personal lives and such isn't very relevant to their architecture but some of those old guys are being written about and studied far more than they ever have before and eventually with the most famous of them their personal lives will become interesting to more people even if it doesn't have to do with their architecture. Michael Hurzdan sure thought so and he's perhaps the most dedicated current architect in this particular vein.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 12:33:04 PM »
Look, I like stories as much as the next guy about binges, kinky sex, screwed up relationships, cheating and other crimes of moral turpitude.

By all means roll 'em out.

It's just that trying to link that stuff to design out-put is dicey at best.

Faulkner was a drunk with the worst marriage ever. Ian Fleming liked to spank his girl friends, William Burroughs liked to .... never mind. Come to think of it, maybe you guys are right. Maybe it all does sync up in the end. ;D

Bob





« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 12:39:26 PM by BCrosby »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 01:07:59 PM »
I thought all the modern day archie cateloging of personalities was already being done by Dr. Katz.

Actually, I think Steve Burrows is on to a most important point.  One needs to understand the social/historical fabric of the times, before one can use snipetts of documents and such to understand a personality, in context with their work and in their times.

We have pretty good insight into Dr. MacKenzie, because in his book, and other books about him, the authors do not fail to note the milieu of their times.  We couldn't possibly know much about the Good Dr., without understanding his service in the Boer Wars and his social life in Great Britain that gave way to his behaviors and contacts during his most productive periods here and on his world tour.  

The books recently written about Perry Maxwell and Thomas Bendelow have some details about their personal lives, families and so forth.  

In Stuart Bendelow's case, he gives great details into the historical/social context that guided Thomas from typesetter to become the "Napoleon of links designers" as lableled by Charles Turner in an article for "Golf In Gotham" in 1899!

One can't say enough about Stuart's book, if one wants to enjoy an effort to give us some context about the architect of the by-gone era.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:09:47 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 08:25:28 PM »
Bob:

Who said anything about binges, kinky sex, screwed up relationships and other lapses into moral turpitude? I was thinking more along the lines of elitism, racism, bigotry and other political incorrectnesses before the term was ever dreamt of, as well as how some of them stood on issues that concern us today. Did you know, for instance, that Macdonald thought controlling the distance the ball went or any other thought to standardization of I&B was bunkum? The reason he thought that way is pretty interesting and explains the true spirit of the sportsman in another and distant era. ;)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 10:01:03 PM »
I was born in Albany NY during a blizzard in February when my father [ a teacher at Albany State Teachers College], had to leave my sleeping two year old brother home alone while he dropped my mother [ a daughter of a hunting guide / carpenter/ poacher ] off at Albany Medical Center because she was in advanced  labor.... he returned home about 1 hour later to a call that I had arrived.

How far do I go?...... :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:07:37 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Phil_the_Author

Re:Do we need to know more about the architects themselves?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2006, 05:21:51 AM »
Understanding the person can help explain not so much what an architect did, but rather, HOW he did it or not.

In 1937, Tilly formed a partnership with Bell. Why did they do almost no work? As far as we acn tell in the nearly three years they were together they did work on 6 or 7 courses only, with a full design that has been partially mentioned up the coast north of California and the major renovation on the Virginia CC as the only thing of real substance.

There certainly was opportunity for them to do more, and Tilly wasn't really that old, having turned 62 in May of '37.

What most don't know is that Tilly had suffered from heart disease that was originally diagnosed in 1926 and caused him much cioncern from then on. For example, because of "a blood pressure of 218..." he had to take "rest in the country for several weeks" when he was supposed to visit and follow-up on the construction of 5 Farms. It was at this time that he stopped any and all drinking of alcohol.

During the three years with Bell he was a shell of the physical man that he had once been, and when he had his near-fatal heart attack in early 1940 he was finished with design adn everything else golf related for all time.

Unless you know of his physical limitations, most would simply conclude that they had no work because of the Depression and this simply wasn't the case.

It is a minor point, yet it enables us to think of but for that, what might have been?

On another note, I for one am VERY glad that I won't be writing Mike Young's biography... A good ole' boy southern red-neck and Georgia Bulldog fanatic building works of art in South and Central America is far beyond my ability to understand!  ;D

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back