[Bill_McBride]

Robert, with water temps at 70 degrees F, doesn't Inverness NS have the potential to be playable year around so long as it isn't snowing??  

In fact, I played this week in Toronto -- so while it is likely that like most northern clubs, Cabot Links will be closed from November to mid-April, it isn't unheard of to play later.

Of course Toronto is well known as the "Banana Belt" of Canada!    

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  

I wish you luck with your project, but it is surely not the ideal of The Carthage Club if you are going to build a 7000 yard par 71 course.

I'm surprised no one else has made this comment.  Lots of people talk the talk about building a shorter and more fun course, but when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road, even Ran Morrissett is opting for a longer and more conventional design.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Thanks.

As I mention above, nothing is set in stone yet in terms of total yardage and par. We have a routing plan we're working from, but as you know, some things - including placement of back tees - will change as construction progresses.

We could very well end up with a 6,700 yards course. Who knows at this point. But, it seems we do have the space to end up close to 7,000 total yards, if that's what transpires.

We'll see.

This isn't the Carthage Club. It's Cabot Links.  

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Thanks for that.  I understand you have to build the best course you can on that site, and that Cabot Links is NOT the Carthage Club ... but considering the title of this thread and some of the things said above, I thought it needed to be pointed out.

By the way, you guys are managing the hype meter pretty well ... I read somewhere in the airport yesterday where the course was going to be the best course in Canada and the best new course of 2007, which would be pretty good if you haven't broken ground yet!

Entirely separate from the discussion of Cabot Links, though, I think I made a valid point, don't you?  Lots of posters here love the idea of a shorter and quirkier course for the modern era, but who has the guts to develop one?

[Gary Daughters]

.. not to mention that it's been moved out of the Carolinas and, well, the country.

best of luck, though.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, nobody much uses those special, "way back" tees at Pacific Dunes, do they?  I'm thinking of that one way behind #1, or probably the tips of #18.  

If the regular day in day out blue tees at Cabot Links were 6700 yards, with a middle tee at 6400 yards and forward tees at 5600 yards, you could sprinkle in some "special" championship tees to add 300 yards and play the Canadian Open there.

Ditto to get Capilano on the Canadian Open rotation (if they wanted it!) - just add a handful of "special" tees.

Fast and firm links golf with interesting greens complexes - that's what will grow a membership at Cabot Links, or at least build a lot of public access play.  Imagine a week in Inverness, with several rounds at Cabot Links and a foray over to Cape Breton Highlands!  It's an exciting prospect, particularly when the US-Canadian dollar exchange is lots more favorable than the dollar-pound exchange rate!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Blackhawk, in Edmonton, is only 6,700 yards from the back tees. It's a quirkier, shorter layout by modern standards. That's simply what the property gave Whitman. So, it is what it is.

The Cabot Links property's a bit more spacious, allowing for the inclusion of some interesting back tees at some of the long holes that could inflate the total yardage on the card, but not tell the whole story per se. In other words, there will definitely be some interesting short holes there, too.

With the ball traveling so far for long-hitting low-handicap golfers, it's become apparent that one of Blackhawk's (deficiencies) are the par 5s. Don't get me wrong, they're interesting holes, where the challenge and interest presented in and around the greens makes up for a possible lack of length for some players. But two in particular - #4 and #11 - play quite a bit shorter than I know Rod anticipated.

If it was possible - and my decision - I wouldn't hesitate to add new back tees at all four par 5s at Blackhawk, which might inflate the total yardage on the card, but again, not tell the whole story. Interesting short holes - like #1, #6, #9, #10 and #16 - would still be there.

You should see Sagebrush... everyone involved with the Sagebrush project wants a more unconventional, quirky, sporty-type layout. But we're dealing with 350 acres. And we know Zokol's buddies - Weir, Ames, Price... - will be visiting from time to time. As staked out, the course could stretch to 7,600 yards!

I don't think the course will measure that long in the end, but there are some long holes that we want to be long from the "Zokol tees". That additional yardage, at those long holes, will inevitably result in the longest course (according to the scorecard) Rod Whitman has designed and built.

But, that's not to say it won't be somewhat unconventional, quirky and sporty too. I think a golf course needs some long holes. And those are getting tougher and tougher to create, as you know, without putting in some REAL back tees!

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: I don't think any one of the participants involved in the Cabot Links project claimed this was the Carthage Club. I do believe, numerous posts back, that someone else made that comparison and then somehow it mutated into a discussion of Cabot Links, a course that does not yet exist.

As for a hype meter, I'd love to see the story you are referring to. Yes, I think in some respects the stories about the course may be ahead of themselves a bit, but the site is terrific and I think lots of people hope this project goes forward. I don't know Ran Morrissett very well, having met on one occasion, but he became involved in the project well after the concept of the course was developing.

And you, of all people, know that having pie-in-the-sky designs on what your dream course is and actually building it are usually very different things. I doubt even Mike Keiser got exactly what he wanted at Pacific Dunes, but that doesn't mean it isn't a great course. Maybe Ran's had to modify his objectives slightly -- or maybe this is simply a different project.

I'm sure you can pick up the phone and ask, if you so desire.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom: I don't think any one of the participants involved in the Cabot Links project claimed this was the Carthage Club.

You might want to check Jeff Mingay's Reply No. 3 on this thread.

As for Tom Doak's question:

"Lots of posters here love the idea of a shorter and quirkier course for the modern era, but who has the guts to develop one?"

I nominate Mike Keiser. Or maybe Dick Youngscap. Someone who could build this shorter, quirkier course in conjunction with a longer, less quirky course (or several).

[Matt Kardash]

Since when does short = quirky and unconventional?
This course could be 7500 yards and still be quirky and unconventional.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I haven't gone back and read Ran's write-up of The Carthage Club in some time, because I know it is fictitious, but I believe a big part of it revolved around a bunch of short par-4's and practically no par-5's to come up with a scorecard of 6200 yards -- similar to Swinley Forest or Rye.

And my point was that no one has the guts to build that.  Heck, it usually takes a lot of pushing back by the architect to get the client to let us build a course at 6700 yards (like Pacific Dunes or Blackhawk or Barnbougle Dunes) instead of 7100 ... but that's not nearly the same thing as 6200 yards.

Robert:

I don't know why you reacted to my post.  As Dan pointed out, Jeff himself was the one who made the comparison to start with.  We all have some good projects on the drawing board, but the more experienced we are, the less likely we are to talk about them in advance.

[Robert Thompson]

Dan: I guess you missed the smiley face beside it. What a waste of a time this debate is.

[Robert Thompson]

Robert:

I don't know why you reacted to my post.  As Dan pointed out, Jeff himself was the one who made the comparison to start with.  We all have some good projects on the drawing board, but the more experienced we are, the less likely we are to talk about them in advance.

So I guess if Jeff was more experienced he wouldn't speak about this club, right? I think you know all to well that often entreprenuers have to publicize their projects in order to raise financing. I think the same rings true for those in architecture.

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

In response to your nomination, I suggested to Mike Keiser that he might build a 6200 yard course for the fourth at Bandon Dunes, but he was not very interested in the idea.  I was surprised because he is more interested in the "retail golfer" than other developers I know ... but I think he believes a "non championship" course would suffer in terms of play being next door to others which are tough tests from the back tees.

The bottom line is that most developers don't want to limit their audience at the outset -- they want their course to be everything to everybody, even the experienced ones that know it is unlikely to work out that way.

I am now more determined than ever to find a project for a 6200 yard course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Why not make it 5900 yards? Par 68 or 73?

[Dan Kelly]

Tom --

There's always Course No. 5 -- isn't there? Maybe?

At any rate:

If there is any *give* at all in Mr. Keiser's all-things-to-all-people thinking, you might remind him that, in the coming years (I speak here from knowledge -- for once., and most unfortunately!), there are going to be one helluva lot of Baby Boomer golfers coming to an age when they won't need one inch more than 6,200 yards to test their skills with every club in the bag, and who would (presumably) enjoy playing a golf course specifically designed to test every player's skills at 6,200 yards (rather than playing, from the up tees, a sort of knock-off version of the Championship course).

And you might remind him that, now and in those same coming years and in all of the years to come after that, there are going to be plenty of female golfers who'll never need close to 6,200 yards.

I vagrantly wonder: Will it take more guts to build a top-drawer 6,200 yard course -- or a top-drawer par-68 course?

I hope you'll be building either or both someday.

--------

Robert Thompson --

No, I didn't miss the smiley. I thought it referred to the course's change of venue.

[brad_miller]

Tom D, how about the land next to Prairie Dunes for that wild and wonderful par 69/70??

[Matthew Hunt]

The Carthage club sounded Cool.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I don't think Rod or I have been excessively vocal, publicly, about the Cabot Links project. Rod especially. Many of (his) quotes you see in the articles written thus far are from the prospectus. Definitely not Rod boasting about the project.  

Ben Dewar's done well promoting his intentions at Cabot Links, which I think has raised interest in the project and some (potential) investment in the deveopment. As Rob points out, that's part of the game when you're trying to raise money for such a project.  

The potential of the Inverness site has been hyped by a couple different developers, and at least three other course architects over the past decade and more. People in the know, especially in Canadian golf (ie. Thompson and Rubenstein, who've written about the project), have been keeping tabs on what's going on at Inverness. They know what's up without us hyping it even more.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom D.:

Although I did post "the Carthage Club is now called Cabot Links" line, I made clear a few posts later that Cabot is not Carthage. It's an entirely different deal.

Interesting conversation that's ensued here though  

[George Pazin]

Entirely separate from the discussion of Cabot Links, though, I think I made a valid point, don't you?  Lots of posters here love the idea of a shorter and quirkier course for the modern era, but who has the guts to develop one?

I'd be very surprised if it were done by anyone opening a public resort - it's simply too big a risk.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()