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Joe Hancock

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Re:What are the GCA Design Patterns
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2006, 12:33:24 PM »
Garland,

I believe a successful minimilast must be excellent at routing.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What are the GCA Design Patterns
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2006, 04:41:47 PM »
I don't know if I am understanding all this, but here is my take... ::)

I think the GCA first must understand the shot patterns of various levels of golfers, and ball and impliment physics and thier relationship with the ground in order to start applying patterns to a golf course design.  

Is it a sifting and winnowing process from the most broad design patterns down to the minutia that you are talking about?  The broad pattern that most golfers are right handed and hit the higher % of shots in a slice pattern, hit it an average of X far, and are within a pattern of accuracy of X yards from intended target area or LZ?  Then, deciding what the terrain offers, and if you want to create a pattern to react to the intended game you are trying to stimulate, by either routing over naturally interesting and varied contour, or creating such out of flat ground?  INcorporating general wind patterns with the intended routing pattern.  Then deciding what par sequencing pattern would work with the previous patterns discovered or created.  Then deciding what pattern of obstacles and hazards you wish to incorporate or create.  Then deciding how they should look aesthetically.  

If that is what you mean, yes I think the pattern usage is infinite because of the variables as one sifts and winnows through the various options at each stage of the patterning.

But, if the GCA doesn't know squat about the game and is just some walking catalogue of reusable or defined patterns, he can pick from all sorts of pattern variables and choices and design some freakish monster that contains many golf course specific patterns, but in the wrong sequence and context...sort of like computer aided robotic design.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What are the GCA Design Patterns
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2006, 03:26:44 PM »
I don't know if I am understanding all this, but here is my take... ::)

I think the GCA first must understand the shot patterns of various levels of golfers, and ball and impliment physics and thier relationship with the ground in order to start applying patterns to a golf course design.  

Some designers such as Pete Dye seem to ignore "various levels of golfers" as his designs tend to dictate the shots that must be made. Other designers such as Hurdzan embrace "various levels of golfers" and place elements of the design to enhance their experience. Therefore, the two different GCAs are working with different design patterns as suits their needs.

Quote
Is it a sifting and winnowing process from the most broad design patterns down to the minutia that you are talking about?  

Design works with both the broad problems and the minutiae. Therefore, there are design patterns for both. As Ryan pointed out, design patterns can be composed with the patterns for the minutiae being nested inside the patterns for the overall problem.

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The broad pattern that most golfers are right handed and hit the higher % of shots in a slice pattern, hit it an average of X far, and are within a pattern of accuracy of X yards from intended target area or LZ?  Then, deciding what the terrain offers, and if you want to create a pattern to react to the intended game you are trying to stimulate, by either routing over naturally interesting and varied contour, or creating such out of flat ground?  INcorporating general wind patterns with the intended routing pattern.  Then deciding what par sequencing pattern would work with the previous patterns discovered or created.  Then deciding what pattern of obstacles and hazards you wish to incorporate or create.  Then deciding how they should look aesthetically.  

I believe you are describing how design patterns must be composed/combined above.

Quote
If that is what you mean, yes I think the pattern usage is infinite because of the variables as one sifts and winnows through the various options at each stage of the patterning.

But, if the GCA doesn't know squat about the game and is just some walking catalogue of reusable or defined patterns, he can pick from all sorts of pattern variables and choices and design some freakish monster that contains many golf course specific patterns, but in the wrong sequence and context...sort of like computer aided robotic design.

Certainly there are GCAs that are better at course routing design patterns than others. Some of the GCAs celebrated on this website are probably the best at course routing design patterns. If I were really industrious, I would read Forrest's book and try to summarize the knowledge there in design patterns.  ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What are the GCA Design Patterns
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2006, 03:28:27 PM »
Garland -

I am not convinced that laying down a Redan hole on land perfectly suited to a Redan hole either solves a problem or leverages a design pattern.

People who use software and buildings generally remain ignorant of the design pattern minutiae that contribute to pleasant experiences with software and buildings. Likewise with golf course architecture.

Armchair architects don't walk around cities and say "here is an example of the cathedral pattern and here is an example of the skyscraper pattern".

I guess Michael gets automatic induction into the TKS for this post.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne