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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Fazio Critique
« on: December 01, 2006, 04:01:19 PM »
Why do I like one course better than another?  As I understand it, that question is one that caused many participants on this site to become interested in the topic of GCA.  I struggle to answer that question.

My recollection of the Fazio courses I have played is pretty consistent.  I usually enjoy the day, but have little positive or negative reaction to the course.  

My view seems to contrast with the public, which generally holds him in high esteem.  While views on this site about Fazio's work vary, it definitely tends to be negative.  

I spent a little time looking for commentary from this site on his work in order to better understand it.  From Ran's profiles of Fazio courses and Nacarrato's posts, there are many thoughtful points.  I thought I would share what I collected (minus some of the inflammatory stuff).  I would be interested in any other views on his work.

From World Woods Profile
“Tom Fazio has made quite a name for himself in the last dozen years. He brought a softer, more artistic approach to his designs. They are pleasing to the eye; particularly the big, bold bunkering that could be singled out as the common feature of his courses. Much of his commercial and critical success is owed to the backlash against the 'contrived' harsh courses of the 1980s. His courses are almost entirely without controversy as he gets the fundamentals right.”

From Victoria National Review
“As a result of their existing friendship, Fazio devoted plenty of personal, on-site time to this project, something that has been distinctly missing in the last five years of his work. After several first-rate courses from the late 1980s and early 1990s (Wade Hampton, Shadow Creek, the Pine Barrens Course at World Woods),  Fazio had become inundated with projects to the point where he couldn't possibly spend enough time at each site. A direct consequence was that an innovativeness was lost as his projects started to take on a similar feel. While his courses remained artistically appealing, they had lost their edge, with too much emphasis on 'playability' and not enough on strategy.”

From Forest Creek Profile
“First, other than the construction of several elevated teeing areas, Tom Fazio draped the holes across the land in such an appealing manner as to require little dirt to be moved. Thus, the course enjoys an unforced, natural appearance as it weaves through the broad corridors of pine trees. The other big name modern architects including Jack Nicklaus and Rees Jones have failed to deliver such a pleasing natural appearance with their efforts in the Pinehurst area. Indeed, Fazio himself couldn't live up to the standard that he set for himself at Forest Creek, as both Pinehurst No. 8 and the remodeled Pinehurst No. 4 are obviously more manufactured.”



From Naccarato Posts:

Most Architects frame golf holes in many aspects. Where Barney is confusing it is that the Tom Fazio-brand of framing utilizes pre-made/templete-like scenes that have proven to be successful for him in the hearts and minds and pea-brained like visions of the Ooooh's and Aaaaaw's crowd.

Good for Fazio is that he does utilize some really topsy turvey greens--sometimes..... Unfortunately, the majority of them don't work very well with the strategies presented off the tee, thus revealing a less then enthusiastic, rendition of Vanilla Snow Cone w/ extra vanilla flavoring.

To reiterate what others have said here, Yes, the man-made--built into the design containment on a Fazio course is well very impressive for its magnatude, it just isn't artisitc in any sense because ultimately and in many cases it doesn't work with the neighboring terrain. It all looks fake and constructed.  It simply doesn't tie-in to anything natural because he has already eliminated anything natural from the site itself.  . . .


. . .

This is because Fazio merges the two, (well sort of) Fazio frames with containment mounds, trees, lakes, ponds and creeks; gimmicky stuff that never existed in that particular of any given hole before. His containment is tied into that framing. Nobody hides containent better then Fazio, but to me Containment is bad when it is designed, and not part of the terrain. When an architect forces his control on a golfer in the extreme with containment, the golfer will become defiant. They may like the way the course looks and plays at first, but they eventually do lose interest.



Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2006, 05:29:27 PM »
Jason,

Good try.  Maybe better bait would work.

My experience apparently has been opposite to yours.  I've been generally entertained, challenged, and pleased with what Darth Fazio has offered.  I certainly have not noticed that my memory suffers when playing his courses relative to those of others more in favor with the critics on this site.  On the other hand, I try hard not to have strong expectations going into a new course.

I didn't understand very much of what you offered from other GCAers.  I know that some don't have a very high opinion of the average golfer and seem to take special pride that others just "don't get it".

I would be curious to hear some of your thoughts, maybe on a representative Fazio course we've both played (Shadow Creek?) in contrast to another by a respected architect, say Doak's Stone Eagle.

Karl Bernetich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 05:40:08 PM »
The game at Hartefeld National starts on the greens.  The course (seems to me) is pretty well constructed, laid out and drains very well.  It's not a course that presents a lot of difficulity with the driver off the tee -- would say that's a general trait for daily fee / Fazio courses.

It is a fun course to play day-in and day-out.  But mostly because it's challenging on and around the greens.  It was breathtaking in 95/96 when it opened -- before the houses.  The houses didn't impact play at all but did change the look of the course and actually some of the play.  On 10, before houses, if you were right of the cart path, you were WAY RIGHT on the hole.  Now it's an every day occurance to see ball bouncing off roofs and ratteling down drain gutters.

So for a critique, the real fun starts when you get to the greens.  Not the kind of course that will "make you a better golfer" if it's the only course that you play.  You can have an off day and still score pretty well (unless it's with the putter).

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2006, 05:43:45 PM »
Tell me what courses Tommy has played outside of California not including the must play if comped Shadow Creek and I might respect his opinion on the subject.  The only architect Tommy knows less about is Ross.  From my personal standpoint I don't care if I ever play another Fazio again..but what does that prove or matter.  He had his time in the sun and now that time has passed..It was a great run.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2006, 06:08:30 PM »
Lou

Thanks for the response and the feedback.  I'm not sure two courses could be much more different than Stone Eagle and Shadow Creek.  I like them both, and have no idea what my preference would be if I played them regularly.

I've only been there once, so take my commentary on Shadow Creek for what it is worth.  I thought the place was a marvel from the perspective of being in a very relaxing pine forest in the middle of the desert.  In general, I recall the holes as presenting very fair, straightforward challenges that were not difficult to decipher and (with the exception of the 18th) forced little in terms of decisions.

Stone Eagle, by contrast, requires constant decision while still being playable for most.  By my review of the yardage book, it looks to me that one makes a choice as to line and club off the tee on every par four or 5 with the exception of 1, 2 and 18.  

The decsion of how to approach the greens will also vary greatly from day to day with the safe miss changing with pin positions and weather. If you hit an iron to the middle of the green at Shadow Creek, you will have a good chance to two putt.  At Ston Eagle, you could have little chance of two putting depending on the hole.

Stone Eagle greens have undulations that come close to the edge of goofy with greens a bit slower.  Shadow Creek has little contour on the greens at pretty fast speeds.  Two very different approaches.

Put Stone Eagle design ideas in a Shadow Creek setting and I would be a very happy customer.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 07:44:46 PM »
If Shadow Creek had been designed like Stone Eagle it would have been an udder failure in Vegas...being that even more cow bell couldn't have saved it.  Maximillionminimallism wouldn't fly for that demographic.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 11:09:18 PM »
Jason,
I'm impressed. I don't even remember half of those posts, but still to this day I'll stand behind my thoughts--of Fazio's California designs, and I've only have like three or four I haven't played out here, including the new ultra-chic Madison Club.

John,
On the flip side, how many FazCal designs have you played?

About Ross, well , I'll agree, I may not know a lot about Ross as I've only played Plainfield, Lu Lu and Gulph Mills. (I also saw some, not all of Aronomink) I loved each of those courses with a great passion, and I don't think there is a single day that goes by I don't think of playing at least one of them again. They are fun, quirky and more then interesting to look at architectural, allowing me to get my "fix." I go to bed at night thinking warm and happy thoughts!

Shadow Creek is a very good golf course. It's also a very over-rated golf course. As an experience, as a engineering acheivement, it's monumental. The rest is just so-so.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 11:23:10 PM »

John,
On the flip side, how many FazCal designs have you played?


Tommy,

I have not played any...can you give me one good reason I would want too.  Have you played Malibu CC...not a Fazio but looks like a bargin.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 01:11:05 AM »
John,
Not one! ;)

Malibu CC, well, let me tell you about Malibu CC. I've played there about five times. It started out as, Church of the Perfect Liberty, a group of Japense businessmen who looking for a place to play, utilized our government's non-taxable church status to not only get the course built, but keep it in top shape fro two or three years before sopmeone finally got wise.

It's tucked way back, and I mean way back into the canyon (The Santa Monica Mountains) not far from Pepperdine. the course is walkable, but your going to feel it on some holes, as well as the staff is probably going to be looking at you perplexed when you tell them you want to walk 18 holes.

For years, the reputation of the course has been, if your caught not replacing a divot after a shot, you will be asked to leave. The C of the PL has always taken great pride in maintaining the course to standards even if it means offending their clientele. In fact, I don't think they actually own the course anymore.

The only problem with Malibu is that the holes are just so-so. Still, not a bad place to play the Game, but certainly not the greatest and maybe just below average.

pacgd

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 01:14:00 AM »
Tommy:

You wrote:

Jason,
I'm impressed. I don't even remember half of those posts, but still to this day I'll stand behind my thoughts--of Fazio's California designs, and I've only have like three or four I haven't played out here, including the new ultra-chic Madison Club.

Have you played Madison Club?  What are your thoughts on it?  According to Mike Meldman, Discovery Land's president, it is "Shadow Creek on Steroids"!?!  I'd  love to hear from someone who's played it for their take.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 04:22:19 AM »
SDZ,
I've only seen glimpses of the property (though the fences!) while it was being built and growing in, but hope a visit is afforded soon. The people I've talked to that have seen it are pretty blown away by the attention to detail.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 05:53:16 PM »
In my opinion...

Fazio is to golf course design what Stephen King or John Grisham are to literature.  The products they create are thoughtfully crafted, beautiful, and, as often as not, quite intriging.  But still the academics and so-called experts have a tendency to discredit them.  

Are there "better" books, or "better" golf courses out there?  Probably.  But I think that Fazio is an important part of the industry, and is as good at what he does as many on this site feel about Doak, or Coore and Crenshaw.  His courses, then, can either be celebrated for what they are, or, if they are so disturbing and awful for the profession, they should/would be ignored and they will go away.  But this is not the case.  Investors continue to give him money.  If anyone is to blame (and I am not suggesting that fault needs to be assigned), it should be them.  Fazio's real job is to make clients happy, which tells me that a great number of people feel that Fazio is good for the game.

Ultimately, King and Grisham are not bad for literature because they are not Hemingway or Dostoyevsky, or because of their popularity and market success, and neither is Fazio bad for golf because his courses don't meet or match some intangible standards of greatness.  
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

John Kavanaugh

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 05:59:09 PM »
Steve,

It is not fair to say that the intellectual class discredits Fazio when 14 of his courses are in the Golfweek Top 100 Modern list.  

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 07:18:53 PM »
John,

Your own posts on this thread are quite confusing.  From earlier...

"I have not played any...can you give me one good reason I would want too."  

and...

"From my personal standpoint I don't care if I ever play another Fazio again." [I apologize for truncating this statement]

But you seem to defend him here, even though your evidence is a subjective "Best" list.  And more to the point, my "so-called" expert comment was directed at participants on this very forum, who have a habit of downplaying or discrediting Fazio's contribution to the industry.
 

...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

CHrisB

Re:Tom Fazio Critique
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 07:55:33 PM »
Any time I see someone making sweeping generalizations about Fazio's work, the thought that immediately comes to my mind is:

"He hasn't been to Victoria National yet."