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ForkaB

John and Rich,

Munch? My first thought was "crop circles!"

Mark

Hmmm....

Maybe all golf courses are crop circles, all "architects" are aliens and the ratings game is just a ploy by their human lackeys to deflect suspicion.....

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tony,

Could you please name one course in this country that every monkey in the congo couldn't hit with a random piece of thrown feces.  

I don't know what this means exactly, but I am still laughing imagining monkeys in the Congo throwing feces at golf courses in the United States.  Who can blame them?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tony,

Could you please name one course in this country that every monkey in the congo couldn't hit with a random piece of thrown feces.  

I don't know what this means exactly, but I am still laughing imagining monkeys in the Congo throwing feces at golf courses in the United States.  Who can blame them?

^^^^^^
One the greatest repsonses that I've ever seen on GCA.com.

-Ted

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not sure if it was mentioned on this post but the vast majority of raters, especially from Golf Digest do not read Golf Club Atlas.   There are 800+ raters and probably 10 post on GCA, maybe 20???

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Joel,

I am just curious, but what are we to draw from your observation?

John Kavanaugh

Joel,

My sympathies are with your panel today.  Do you wish more Digesters participated on GCA..would you see that as a positive or negative for the future of design.  I have always believed that GCA is a bad enviornment for a rater participation in that it handcuffs the imagination.

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
On the positive side (if there is one), it promotes golf. As golfers, we should embrace the attitude of the USGA, "For the Good of the Game."

Think of how many people read GD or GM or any other publication and are inspired to go play a round after what they see or read. If more people play the game as a result of a "rating" system, then so be it.

For every selection that you agree with, there will be two with which you'll disagree.  Grin and bare it.
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,  I enjoy being a panbelist for GD and an active member of GCA.  On another thread I argued that the ratings have had good effects on architecture.  Stopping discussion of the ratings on GCA isnn't going to happen.  It doesn't warrant as much discussion as it gets, however.

GCA has immensly helped me in my looking intelligently at a course and what the designer did or could have done with a course.
I don't understand how anything can handcuff the imagination, at least mine.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

Tommy,

Don't you feel this site has taken away the joy of discovery.  There is no such thing as stumbling on a new course and being surprised anymore.

John Kavanaugh

The best example is the Bandon Resort...I think I would have enjoyed the course more and been able to do a more honest evaluation if I had not been exposed to the opinions of this site.  It was really refreshing to play Bandon Dunes with guys not familiar with GCA...It made me sad to think I had prior negative thoughts in my head that prevented me from really enjoying the course as much as it deserved.  I know that my final opinions would be different even today if I had never found this site.  Good or bad, I don't know.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
I for one hearby pledge not to post on any rating thread...who is with me.

The Pledge, circa August 2005

I remain pure (regarding posting about magazine rankings).
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

How did you stumble upon that trip to Bandon?



I think expectations are very difficult to overcome and poisonous, but that's human nature...you can't stop it.


Without this site, what in the world would ever get you to go to Bandon, Oregon? What expectations would you have under those circumstances?


John Kavanaugh

John,

How did you stumble upon that trip to Bandon?



I think expectations are very difficult to overcome and poisonous, but that's human nature...you can't stop it.


Without this site, what in the world would ever get you to go to Bandon, Oregon? What expectations would you have under those circumstances?



I think the number of people who go to Bandon that participate on or read this site is a very small percentage of their total play.  I hope you qualify for the Mid-Am at Bandon in the recent future...My last round of golf was played with a friend who hopes the same for himself.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK,

I "stumble" into surprises often.  This site and the magazines just make the process more efficient.  Even with my contrarian streak, I am not often disappointed.

I've heard architects complain about the projects they get not having sufficient budgets to compete.  I've heard the ranking of certain courses and perhaps the methods of how they got there questioned.  Some have commented that ratings drive costs up.

That ratings hurt the "advancement" of gca is a new one on me.  If so, that's been going on since the days of Macdonald and MacKenzie and their publicized claims that certain courses, theirs primarily, were among the best in the world.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Barney;  As others have noted, you are more than a little obsessed with this topic and return to it in various guises as often as possible.  Since my discipline is law and not psychiatry, I'll not venture any further into the reasons for this behaviour.  Instead, I'll offer a few comments.
I think on balance ratings are good good for the discipline because they

 draw attention to golf course architecture and help bring focus to that which various people think is both good and bad about approaches to designing, building and maintaining golf courses.  The important thing to remember is that each rating is merely a collection of opinions and thus cannot be taken too seriously when considering the relative merits of individual courses.  Instead they should be viewed as benchmarks for considering that which makes a course "great' or '' better" when compared to others.

Relying on market forces would be a mistake in my opinion.  The market measures popularity and commercial success which are very important.  But, at the risk of sounding like a snob ( and I think you know me well enoughto judge whether I am or not) that which is most popular is not necessarily that which is best.  If you need a simple example, merely look to the music industry and take a look at what sells.  Then ask what people will still be listening to in 1, 2 , 5 , 15, or 20 years.   Which is best?  The entire pupose of intelligent criticism is to try and understand that which makes any endeavor better than another, whether one is discussing the relative merits of food, art, ballplayers or golf courses.

Finally, I find your remarks about the destructive impact of this site on your ability to appreciate golf courses to be disconcerting, particularly in light of your "smartest guy in the room" and other similar threads.  What you are suggesting is that the more educated you become, the less you are able to apply your own standards to analyzing courses because you have been influenced by others.  I never thought I would compare you to Rousseau but it sounds like you are suggesting that you yearn to be a "noble savage" untouched by civilization when it comes to GCA.   Nonsense I say.  The only way education limits your ability to form opinions is if you are so weak willed and easily influenced that you are unable to apply the knowledge you have obtained and reach your own conclusions.  If that is what you are suggesting then the question remains whether your uneducated and uninfluence opinion would be "better" than an educated albeit influenced evaluation.  But of course we know you are stronger minded than that and are capable of making up your own mind notwithstanding the impact of ratings and the attempts by fellow GCA afficianados to influence your opinion.  So what the entire thread comes down to is another series of reasons why you don't like ratings and why you are suspicious of the GCA "intelligentsia".  OK, we get it and while there may be some internal inconsistencies the general theme remains the same.  I respect your opinion onthis issue; I just disagree.

John Kavanaugh

Shel,

Thanks, I had never heard of Rousseau (I found a book called The Confessions of Jean-Jacques Rousseau on my bookshelf at home) I can't understand a word and at 635 pages do not think I will try. (Now that he has been referenced I will be sure to put the book in a more prominent place) note:  I once bought an estate of books from a librarian who never married and she loved poetry and philosophy just like me.)

I did find this diddy when Googling the guy:

In his early writing, Rousseau contended that man is essentially good, a "noble savage" when in the "state of nature" (the state of all the other animals, and the condition man was in before the creation of civilization and society), and that good people are made unhappy and corrupted by their experiences in society. He viewed society as "artificial" and "corrupt" and that the furthering of society results in the continuing unhappiness of man.

Looks to me like the guy makes a valid point.  I hope he wasn't a bore and I hope I am not one either as you rightfully indicate in when you say "OK, we get it"..language I can understand.  I'll have to try harder to do better and will always appreciate and look forward to any further criticisms you may have of me in the future.  Unhappily yours...JK.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't think the rating hurt the advancement of architecture.

They are fun to banter about and they give you new places to go to and seek out new courses.

I would not have played so many wonderful courses were it not for the rankings and GCA, many times being at odds.

How else would I have gone to:

Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
Marquette, Mich
Biwabah, Minn
Mullen, Nebraska
Holyoke, Colo
Bandon, Or
New Mexico
 etc
etc etc
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

I don't know you like Mr. Solow does, but I too am concerned for you when I read herein that not only are you poisoned by the gca but you're fighting with your wife about some Cornell trivia!

Do you have some tequila in the closet--maybe that would help!

I find this site to be a great source of learning, and the rankings too but less so--therein lies the charm of this site and one of the failings of the rankings--they teach me little besides the names.

I agree with Cary--I've learned about many courses here, including an often surprising one, Sultan's Run, that I think is in your neighborhood...

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

How did you stumble upon that trip to Bandon?



I think expectations are very difficult to overcome and poisonous, but that's human nature...you can't stop it.


Without this site, what in the world would ever get you to go to Bandon, Oregon? What expectations would you have under those circumstances?



I think the number of people who go to Bandon that participate on or read this site is a very small percentage of their total play.  I hope you qualify for the Mid-Am at Bandon in the recent future...My last round of golf was played with a friend who hopes the same for himself.

John,

No question, but everyone on here that has been to Bandon went with a certain expectation. I remember the circumstances that led to your trip out there, and I'll tell you what, I don't believe you had a negative impression of BD before going. High expectations lead to disappointment, low expectations encourage pleasant surprises. One does not make the trek to Bandon, OR with no notice and perfect strangers with low expectations. Not even a loon like you.

John Kavanaugh

Eric,

I played Sultan's Run a couple of weeks ago...Didn't even need GCA to find it.  This is a perfect example of how being educated by this site hurt my enjoyment of the course.  The artifical land movement that has no resemblance to anything naturally found in its's surroundings is pleasing to the eye but strangely unnerving to the educated mind.  While enjoying the conversation of my partner on the cart rides between holes I was searching for more efficient routing possibilities.  My final conclusion was that while a pleasure to play it may be the single most inefficient cart path to green walks I have ever seen.  To top it all off I thought I spotted a principal's nose on a hole only to find it to be an optical illusion caused by the tee being at a lower elevation than the three bunkers that were spaced too far apart.  We should go sometime and have a few laughs at Liddy's expense.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 08:30:11 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tommy,

Don't you feel this site has taken away the joy of discovery.  There is no such thing as stumbling on a new course and being surprised anymore.

John, there are so many courses out there that I still "stumble" on to many each year.  Many of them I have heard about through GCA or GD.  Most of the time I get excited about playing them and are not disappointed.  

I probably play 60 or 70 different courses a year.  There really isn't much new I see.  But once in a while I'll hear about a course on GCA and go play it and get excited about it.  If it were not for GCA I would never have played St. Enodoc.  Now I'd like to buy a house in Cornwall.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

You could think of your education "illuminating" your experience rather than "hurting".  Sort of like what I try to do with my putting, I BELIEVE I am a good putter, but then tequila helps with that too.

I have an ambition to play The Trophy Club, Purdue's Kampen Course, and Harrison Hill in one day next summer to get a full Liddy.  Are you in?

I'll definitely be up for a revisit to Sultan's Run when I go back to French Lick, but I'll be force-feeding you happy pills if you get grumpy.

Eric


John Kavanaugh

The Liddy I enjoy that is more in my area is Cambridge in Evansville.  In an attempt to educate one of my playing partners and make him as unhappy as me I pointed out the similarities of Cambridge and Sultan's Run on several occasions.  I like the Liddy tour..He is a great asset to Southern Indiana.

Kyle Harris

John,

Everyone on GOLFCLUBATLAS.COM should INSIST on paying for Green Fees in $2.00 bills. Let's get all our friends in on this, too.

This will do two things:

1.) Make paying for the exorbetant green fees charged at some Top 100 courses tedious and literally hard on your wallet.

2.) When we all start playing courses that are fun and worthy of accolades, the influx of $2.00 bills will show just how much influence we have.

Heck, we could add a "Where's Jefferson" page to the site so Golf Course Owners can track who is playing where by the serial numbers on the bill.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 09:38:37 PM by Kyle Harris »

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