Is a hole great if the green is flat..

[Jordan Wall]

Well there is the question.

Can a hole be great with a flat green?

Cen a deceptively flat green make a hole great?

What are some good examples of great holes with flat greens?

And, how good does the rest of the hole have to be (ie - not the green) to make a great hole with a flat green?

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

Good question.

I am trying to think of the best hole I can think of with an essentially flat green ... if everybody made nominations along those lines we would have your answer pretty quickly.

So far all I can come up with are the 14th and 17th at National Golf Links.  But, apparently the members flattened those green after Macdonald passed away.  I guess there are some great holes at Royal County Down with pretty flat greens, too.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, I am surprised that with all of the abuse that Bethpage Black has taken on this site and elsewhere for having "Flat greens," something that those who competed for the 2002 Open took strong disagreement to, that you wouldn't mention what was listed in Golf magazine as one of the 18 greatest holes in the world and of the millenium, the 5th hole at Bethpage Black.

Even I would say that green has minimal movement in its contours.

[John_Cullum]

Didn't I read where one of the bigger named architects spec'd a green somewhere to be perfectly flat? I realize you could never get it perfect on the ground, but you could get close. That would really be a mind blower and would remove all of the excuses.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:  I thought about Bethpage as I posted that, but the first two holes which came to mind were 4 and 17 -- neither of which has a flat green, as you well know.  I guess #5 does, though, and I would say that's the best hole anyone has come up with so far.

John C:  I would bet a lot of money that a perfectly flat green would wind up being a maintenance headache long-term.  Surface drainage is a big help in preventing disease; USGA greens mix and subsurface drainage is a lot slower in getting the water off.  But building a perfectly flat green would be no problem, lots of people build perfectly flat tees with laser grading equipment.

[Brad Tufts]

#16 at Essex County Club, 425 yards par 4.

But of course if you look at the green from a low angle in magic hour light....you will realize there are three paralell ridges probably no more than an inch or two high....

But that's if you want to get reeeaall picky...

...#500...count it!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you've restored my faith!    

[Geoffrey Childs]

Phil beat me to it.

Bethpage Black #5 is unquestionably a great hole and its green is as flat as can be except perhaps at its edges.

#4 is a fall away green (front to back)
#17 has a wild terrace that divides the narrow lower right section from the deeper back left section.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Is #5 as good as it can be?

I'd rather see an example of a flat green on a hole that would be lessened if the green were shaped.

I would guess a great hole with a flat green would need to have a small green.

cheers

[Jason Topp]

12 at Augusta National

[Greg Tallman]

While not totally flat the 17th on The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol would be a candidate as may be the 18th. Neither green truly has a siginificant break unless near the far left edges of either.

Just played today and my playing companion commented on the relative flatness of the 17th green.  

[Scott Coan]

#17 at Paraparaumu has a perfectly flat green and it's one of the world's best par 4's.  Only ONE place to miss this green and that is short - anywhere else and you are toast.

[Mark_F]

Woodhall Spa would have to be another contender, wouldn't it?
3 and 12 were two of my favourite holes there, and I don't recall them being particularly rolling.

It is the bunkers, particularly on 3, that make that course.

Here on the Sandbelt, Woodlands has a number of greens quite modest in contour, particularly the short par five 2nd, and the long par four 10th, which both employ a modest rise in the fairway at driving height to carve some fabulous bunkering.

[Jordan Wall]

Does a great green complex (Paraparauma 17) make up for a flat green?

[Chris Cupit]

#16 at Cypress Point
# 8 at St. Andrews

[Mike_Young]

Aren't there plenty of flat greens but not many level greens?  
IMHO a level putt has much less margin for error.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan,

Yes.

A green is but one component.
An important component, but not one critical enough to eliminate a hole from the good to great category because its green is flat.

Tom Doak,

# 2, # 8, #9 and # 18 at NGLA are relatively flat, and # 2 and # 9  tend to play very flat due to their immense size.
 

[Philippe Binette]

I don't know if everybody agree that it's a great hole...

but as far as flat greens... the 9th on the Old Course is pretty hard to beat

[wsmorrison]

Mike N asks a great question.  Is BB5 a great hole because the green is flat or might it be better if the green weren't flat?

In my opinion, a flat green cannot make a hole great.  There can be a majority of components that are great on a hole with a flat green.  I think slope or contours are necessary to make a great green and add greatness to a hole that may already be great tee to green and green surrounds.  The addition of internal or external slope and/or contouring and bunkering adds to the strategic demands of the hole.  This to me is a better hole.

The 17th at Paraparaumu, especially due to the approach and the surrounds is an interesting and demanding hole.  Is the flatness of the green a value add?  I wouldn't think so.

Of course the greens we speak of as flat are not really, at least if they are to surface drain.  Tom D or others, for an average sized green, what slope appears flat, 1-1.5%?

[John_Cullum]

I am clearly in a small minority, but I kind of like the idea of challenging a player to make a perfect stroke on a putt. One that everybody can watch, and if he mishits, its out, if he hits, it's in. I realize there will occasionally be other factors, like ball marks and spike marks, and maybe that would be so prevalent, it would make the exercise too unlikely. It would likely only work where the green was well maintained and didn't get too much play.

We like the 2 or 20 hole. Whats wrong with the 1 or done green?

[Scott Szabo]

From what I recall, the 4th at Sand Hills is a relatively flat green, and I would consider that a great hole.