Sea Island question

[JMorgan]

How extensive was the Fazio "update" of the Colt/Alison Seaside Course and the Jones "renovation" of the Travis Plantation Course?  

[paul cowley]

Both were total re dos that share for the most part similar routings of the courses they preceeded.

[JMorgan]

Paul, were both courses totally redesigned -- greens, bunkers, and all?  I've never seen aerials of the originals.  

BTW did you work on the Love Course?

[cary lichtenstein]

How extensive was the Fazio "update" of the Colt/Alison Seaside Course and the Jones "renovation" of the Travis Plantation Course?  

I quite enjoyed both the Seaside course and the Lodge and went back a 2nd time, and enjoyed it as much that time too.

A 1st class renovation and hotel and service

[paul cowley]

James....yes, all three of the courses [Fazio, Jones and Love], were total redesigns, and I participated as the design associate for the Love Course.....known as Retreat.

[Lloyd_Cole]

In the overall renovation - Ralph Lauren's clubhouse is the only total screw up I could see after our visit last year. Overbearing doesn't start to describe it. And, YES, it was lovely before.  Fazio did a good job, I think.  Seaside is a fun challenge on a large scale. As it always was, but the scale of the challenge is now maybe more consistent from hole to hole.. And maybe that isn't  a good thing.. but I would return, for sure..

[cary lichtenstein]

In the overall renovation - Ralph Lauren's clubhouse is the only total screw up I could see after our visit last year. Overbearing doesn't start to describe it. And, YES, it was lovely before.  Fazio did a good job, I think.  Seaside is a fun challenge on a large scale. As it always was, but the scale of the challenge is now maybe more consistent from hole to hole.. And maybe that isn't  a good thing.. but I would return, for sure..

Ralph Lauren clubhouse? R u talking about the pro shop or the Lodge itself???

[JMorgan]

Thanks, Gents.  I am planning a brief trip down to Sea Island from Charleston over the holidays.

[Lloyd_Cole]

In the overall renovation - Ralph Lauren's clubhouse is the only total screw up I could see after our visit last year. Overbearing doesn't start to describe it. And, YES, it was lovely before.  Fazio did a good job, I think.  Seaside is a fun challenge on a large scale. As it always was, but the scale of the challenge is now maybe more consistent from hole to hole.. And maybe that isn't  a good thing.. but I would return, for sure..

Ralph Lauren clubhouse? R u talking about the pro shop or the Lodge itself???

As I recall the pro shop is now within a large building with extensive locker rooms etc. Whatever you call that.. Clubhouse, I thought. It was ghastly.

[cary lichtenstein]

Lloyd:

The pro shop is in the back right and side of the main lodge.

I thought the lodge was done in excellent taste, with old woods and very elegant.

Granted the pro shop was quite large, with a very preppy Ralph Lauren section, but I thought that too was done in very good taste.

Give me a clue, what am I missing? This was the exact opposite of the Donald Trump glintz and gold, ornate stuff.

Cary

[paul cowley]

Cary....you are missing nothing....but I will give you a clue.

I was in Quebec City last month, having a drink in the Chateau Frontenac's lounge when my companion and I noticed the curvilinear symmetry and the similar feeling and use of woodwork that is also found in the lounge at the Lodge. I know the architect, Peter Capone, but it wasn't until then that I realized Peter had obviously spent some time there too.

[Geoffrey Childs]

James

I too enjoyed the Seaside course.  Its hard to mess up a setting like that with the wind affecting play so much.  I have never seen or played the old Alison version but I played what's left of Alison's Timber Point yesterday with Neil Regan who played the original Seaside many times. From his description of some of the holes and how they were altered by Tom Fazio it would seem to be a crime.  Greensites were moved and great strategies and risk reward options altered and eliminated.

Maybe Neil will see this and chime in with some specifics.

[Coral_Ridge]

I played the Seaside course many years ago and I remember being enthralled by it.  And the thought of playing a golf course designed by the preeminent architectural team from Great Britain made it that much more memorable to me.  Is the makeover done by Tom Fazio - admittedly a great present day architect - kind of counter to the popular notion of restoring the great courses of yesteryear.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd:

The pro shop is in the back right and side of the main lodge.

I thought the lodge was done in excellent taste, with old woods and very elegant.

Granted the pro shop was quite large, with a very preppy Ralph Lauren section, but I thought that too was done in very good taste.

Give me a clue, what am I missing? This was the exact opposite of the Donald Trump glintz and gold, ornate stuff.

Cary

Clearly not missing anything Cary. I was just turned off by what felt like a giant Polo store made into a clubhouse. I should add that I do tend to prefer shacks and dive bars, and possibly because I might look smart in these places.. I also prefered the old Royal Melbourne clubhouse.. and I do hail the wealth of opinions here.

[Coral_Ridge]

Not wanting to keep at my question too much, but I wonder about the Colt and Alison nine holes of Sea Island being in essence (tell me I'm wrong) a redesigned golf course and not a restoration, as stated by Paul Cowley.  After reading about the restoration movement in this country in the Bradley Klein article titled "Taking a Mulligan" in the Oct 14th Golfweek, I got excited about future restorations that may take place.  Was the Seaside nine at Sea Island overrated all those decades and not worthy of a restoration?

Can you ".....feel the ghosts of Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen walking alongside as you make your way..." (taken from the Sea Island ad) if the course has been totally redesigned?

[Bill Gayne]

I've played both the old and the new about ten years apart and some of the routing remained the same. The big difference in my memory was the changes to the bunkering. From what I understand the C&A course replaced a Travis course.

I've stayed in the Lodge three times and have found it simply excellent. There are some great pictures of course construction and a routing map hanging on the walls.