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Mark_Fine

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Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:45:53 AM »
Scott Witter and I have collaborated in the past and are currently working on a fascinating project outside of Albany, NY called Copake CC.  No one yet knows the name of the original architect; however, we believe from our early on research/field investigation that it just might be a lost Emmett design.  The earliest records we have found so far at The Golf House date back to a 1922 reference in The American Annual of Golf.  Emmett completed no less than 9 other clubs within 70 miles of Copake which further supports our initial suspicions of his involvement.  We have recently spoken with Geoffrey Cornish about the course and he is helping us with our investigation.  He remembers seeing the course many years ago (Geoffrey still recalls everything).
 
It is a fascinating golf course with all kinds of potential.  We are already working with Superintendent (Mark Anderson) on the process of expanding the greens back out into the corners of the fill pads.  We were just up at the course on Friday and he is doing an excellent job of slowly bringing them out to the edges.  The greens were at one time mostly square and have been reduced to circles and ovals over the years.  This improvement alone will help restore interest and strategy to the design.  Players are already talking about it.  
 
If anyone here knows anything more about Copake CC, please let us know.  The new owner of the golf course is very excited about the property.  Until we got there, we are not sure if he realized he was buying (and saving) a gem in the rough.  The course would have been converted to town homes but the new owner and his partner wanted nothing of the sort.  They are passionate about the place and want to enhance it.  
 
We’ll post some photos soon.
Mark
 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 04:02:19 PM by Mark_Fine »

JMorgan

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Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? New
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 11:06:30 AM »
,.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:01:04 AM by JMorgan »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 11:46:05 AM »
James,
I'll post a few photos soon.  Scott may beat me to it.  Have you ever seen the golf course?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 11:49:49 AM »
There are some pics on the website:

www.copakecountryclub.com

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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 11:54:04 AM »
James,
I'll post a few photos soon.  Scott may beat me to it.  Have you ever seen the golf course?

I have not.  I've driven past it on the way to visit friends in MA.  For historic leads, you may want to check in with the folks at Leatherstocking and some of the other local Emmet courses where the Dev Emmet Cup is played, such as Mohawk in Schenectady or Schuyler Meadows in Loudonville.    

Mark_Fine

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Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2006, 12:05:27 PM »
Here are a few shots of Copake and the beginning of the process to expand the greens to their original shapes and sizes.  






Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 12:49:32 PM »
Mark,
I went over to play a couple of days ago and the first thing an enthusiastic Mark Anderson tells me is about this possibility, and who told him. I gave him the GCA website, maybe he'll post.

Copake has some interesting old features, like the berms that cross a couple of fairways, bunkers short of the greens, etc.. I was surprised to learn from Mark that the par 3 17th was originally a par 4 and that the remains of the bunker behind #5 green was an aiming point for the tee shot. That must have been quite a hole as that green is pretty small. He also said the 16th green is not an original. Mark didn't mention it, but there does appear to be an old greensite about 100 yds. short of the present day 18th, it is in the right side rough, about 100 yds. short of the present day green.
Did you guys notice it when you were there?

The routing is interesting, with the back nine ringing the front nine. As you probably know, it was thought that the back nine came later than the front. This set-up leads to quite a few parallel holes that make the course play 'tight' when there are a lot of people there.

Even though we had a wet year the greens were firm every time I was there. They can get very fast and two-putting is not guaranteed. On a couple holes, like #'s 14 and 18, even three-putting is not guaranteed. Mark Anderson has done a tremendous job on the course and it has been in the best shape that I have seen it in over 20 years of playing it, despite the challenge he faces with the drainage.

All in all, a nice course.







"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Scott Witter

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 01:45:52 PM »
Jim:

We did notice the small plateau you mention on 18, but we are not convinced this was an old green site.  It could be...further design research will assist with this and many other interesting questions Mark and I have.

Mark Anderson is quite excited to say the least and very encouraged to do whatever he can to contribute to the whole effort.  Mark F. and I are looking forward to working with him.  Mark A. understands and supports what we are interested to accomplish and will be a huge asset as the process moves forward.

We believe the "old berms" to remnants of old cop bunkers where stones from construction were gathered and piled and buried across the line-of-play for strategic interest.

"Even though we had a wet year the greens were firm every time I was there. They can get very fast and two-putting is not guaranteed. On a couple holes, like #'s 14 and 18, even three-putting is not guaranteed"  you are quite right and one of the better classic features we like.  You have to remember though, some of this will be improved when the original putting surfaces are restored to their original size.

"despite the challenge he faces with the drainage"  Absolutely and while we both enjoy the challenges and excitement that comes from design input much work is required on the functional front to also restore the playing conditions once enjoyed.

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2006, 03:24:31 PM »
c1942

(Mark, I suggest you put the word Copake into the thread title)



« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 03:26:30 PM by Neil Regan »
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Mike_Cirba

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2006, 03:47:39 PM »
Mark,

Other than the fact that Emmett did work in that area in the same timeframe, do you have any other reason(s) to believe it's Dev?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2006, 04:28:17 PM »
Mike,
It is early in the process so right now it is just a hunch.  We've spent time on the site, done some research, and talked with different people who think they have an idea.   Forrest and I researched Emmett for our Hazards book and I've seen a fair number of Emmett courses for comparisons of features.  We still need some concrete proof before drawing a final conclusion.

I assumed by now that someone like you would have it figured out and save us a lot of time and effort  ;D  It was you who uncovered the origin of the original architect for our project at Brookside CC (remember Mr. Lockwood)  ;)  

We will figure it out eventually but for now Scott and I thought we would tap the expertise on this website.  If nothing else, everyone will get to see some pretty cool photos of a neat old golf course.  
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 04:28:52 PM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2006, 04:35:43 PM »
Mark,

That's why I asked.   I'll go through my research files tonight and see if I can find anything on Copake.  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2006, 04:54:01 PM »
If anyone can dig something up, I would bet it would be you.  Thanks for the offer to see what you can find.  

Scott Witter

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2006, 06:14:38 PM »
Mike:

I lived in Saratoga Springs for 7 years during the late 80's and early 90's and played many times at all the Emmett layouts around Albany and enjoyed them all emensely.  Naturally, I took careful note of many details and characteristics and began to have a real comfort level with his work.  With this first hand experience, it appears for the moment at least, that either Emmett or an associate who followed his style closely may have been involved.  We haven't ruled out Alfred Tull either, who as you know was a close associate/partner.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2006, 08:23:59 AM »
Mike,
I trust you were up all night searching for the name of the architect  ;D  

I plan to speak with Mr. Cornish later today and was hoping to pass on the good news.
Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2006, 08:34:13 AM »
Mike,
I trust you were up all night searching for the name of the architect  ;D  

I plan to speak with Mr. Cornish later today and was hoping to pass on the good news.
Mark

Mark,

Jen went to sleep early and the file cabinet is in the bedroom.   :-[

I'm not holding much hope, though.   I did do some research re: courses in the Albany area about 10 years ago, but I'm not recalling that Copake was found.   I'll be sure to check tonight to be sure.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 09:17:13 AM »
Mark,

Went through my files last night and unfortunately, nothing on Copake.  Sorry..I thought the name sounded familiar.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Hidden Gem could be a Lost Emmett? Copake CC
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 09:49:25 AM »
Mike,
Thanks for trying.  We're just getting started with the project and we'll figure it out eventually.  

If anyone else out there knows anything about the history of the course, please let Scott or I know.  Send one of us an IM or email.  
Mark