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Marty Bonnar

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A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« on: November 16, 2006, 04:51:29 PM »
The joys of GoogleEarth once again. I know NOTHING of this place at all. I do love the 'landscape integration'!



Perhaps Mr Rowlinson can shed some light upon it's history/playability/greatness/crapness?

Certainly the frst time I've seen a Course incorporated into a Royal Park in the UK, although I bet those Revolutionary Frenchies have done it loads!

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 06:28:41 AM »
Well, it's Hampton Court Palace.  If I remember correctly there was some sort of take over - it was, I think, called Home Park Golf Club - and, if my memory is correct, the members were bought out and simply lost their club and course.  It now seems to be a commercial enterprise.  Unfortunately I don't know what it is like.

If you seek out Windsor Castle on Google Earth you can see the Royal Household golf course, looking in need of a makeover.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 06:36:20 AM »
Martin, If you want to set the pulse racing look up Skagen, Denmark and look to the south west.  There are miles and miles and miles of virgin sand dunes and not a golf course in sight.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 07:00:12 AM »
And there's no point in looking up Cruden Bay on Google Earth - it's under a blanket of thick cloud.

Richard Muldoon

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 07:20:55 AM »
Martin,
Mark as usual is spot on. It is now known as Hampton Court Palace GC and is owned by American Golf. Formerly Home Park GC.
The members were basically chucked out, but were offered reduced re-joining fees. A couple of my friends were fuming as they had only joined the year before and got the double whammy.
The existing HPGC committee copped the flak because when the lease from the palace was coming up for renewal they just assumed that they would get it and didn't check if any other interest had been shown.
I don't know a great deal of the history apart from about 8 years ago a lot of trees were cut down by the Royal Parks because they wanted to restore the views that would have existed in Henry VIII's days. Previously in the great storm of 87? loys of trees were lost and the course is now much more open than it was then.
I believe the original clubhouse burned down in the 70's and the new owners were building another new one when I last played there.
The new owners changed the routing and it now has a good finish with, IMHO, the 16th and 17th being 2 of the best holes on the course and the 18th a long par with a hard green to hold.
I can't remember what the course played like when it was more tree lined, but when I last regularly played there (5-10 years ago) a few of the holes played like an inland links.
It isn't a long course and has 3/4 driveable par fours.
The greens are generally flat and true and usually in good condition though you do get some damage from the deers that graze in the park.
It is very well drained considering how close to the Thames it is located.
Not a great course, but enjoyable enough, even though I think the green fee is now too high.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 07:47:35 AM »
Thanks, Richard, for filling me in.  Maybe I'm not as senile as I think I am.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 07:51:03 AM »
What he said as he's played it a lot more than I have.

But come on Richard if Shivas admits to playing the Reverse Jans we can at least own up to trying to drive balls onto the lowest fairway in the picture from accross the great Water feature known as the Thames.  I'd describe it as a highly penal hole with the risk vs reward involving about 5 years as a guest of Her Majesty. ;)


Mark how many courses can you think of on old Royal Hunting grounds?  Knowle, Torndon Park are just two of them.  I would bet the Royals favoured hunting on lighter sandy ground rather than clay.  
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 09:34:14 AM »
The Berkshire was a royal hunting ground, Swinley may well have been as it's next door.  Royal Belgique certainly was.  There were other clubs on former hunting grounds but I don't think they were royal hunting grounds, such as Beau Desert, Brancepeth Castle.  

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 09:40:42 AM »
Here's a GCA Quiz question.

In the above picture follow the Thames to the left, i.e. West or upstream, and the last piece of open land on the south bank is highly significant in golf's history. Why?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Richard Pennell

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Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 09:55:54 AM »
Sorry, I had to cheat. Here's something Google threw up:

The Royal Blackheath have another club in their collection, called a putter, gifted to them by John Hume. The putter was presented to Royal Blackheath with an account of 'an original feat of golfing by the Rev. Dr Carlysle (sic) of Inversk'.  In his 'History of Golf', Robert Browning speculates that the 'Home's golf putter' (sic) is the actual club that Rev Alexander Carlyle used to perform this feat.  The Rev 'Jupiter' Carlyle won the Royal Musselburgh Golf Club cup in 1775. In his autobiography, he recounts a visit to the actor David Garrick in London in 1758, with the author John Hume.  In travelling through London the party were cheered by soldiers of the Scots Guards, who saw the golf clubs in the back of the coach and surmised correctly that the occupants must be Scottish. Rev Carlyle makes no mention of a golf club at Blackheath in his account, but he tells how he, John Hume and Parson Black played golf at Molesly Hurst (sic) over the river from Garrick's house, near Hampton Court Palace in the west of London.   This is the only reference to the Molesey course at this time. Afterwards 'Jupiter' Carlyle performed the world's first recorded golf trick shot, by pitching a ball through an arch in Garrick's garden into the River Thames.  Garrick begged Carlyle to give him the club and it might well have ended up in the possession of John Hume. The golf visit is also recounted in Olive Geddes 'A Swing Through Time'.

Is that the level of knowledge just floating around inside your head Tony ;) Very impressive stuff

"The rules committee of the Royal and Ancient are yesterday's men, Jeeves. They simply have to face up to the modern world" Bertie Wooster

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 10:54:27 AM »
Thank you Richard but it doesn't help pay the mortgage.

Yes the flat parcel of land is Molesey Hurst and in 2000 they erected a plaque on there to commemorate that day.  It was a racecourse and a famous place for Boxing matches and cock fights drawing large crowds.  When the racecourse was built over in the 1960's the turf was taken to Ascot racecourse as it was particularly fine.   If you go to Google earth and zoom in on the North bank opposite, there's a small building with a white circular roof by the Thames and that's  'Shakespeare's Temple' that Garrick (the famous theatrical actor manager) built.  

I’ve been meaning to take some photos and write this up here for some time.  Why do none of the histories question whether Carlyle was really hitting featheries into the water?  Yet they all mention this event as an early example of Scotsmen spreading the game. Personally I see this day as more evidence that Golf was still evolving from two games that were closely overlapped. The Long game, played on open spaces with fine clubs and featheries and played by the well to do.  The Short game, played by Everyman in Scotland had cheap clubs and a wooden or cork ball.  For more information see Golf Scotland's Game by Henderson – a great read.  In the morning the party played on the fields opposite and after a good lunch played trick shots from the temple with a ball that Carlyle knew would get wet as he was betting Garrick that he could pull the shot off, repeatedly.



(Trivia fact: Google just downstream from the Temple. On the North Bank the first house you come to is owned by a member of Pink Floyd and the large barge moored outside is a recording studio).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:37:42 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re:A Willie Park in, well, a Park
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 11:38:59 AM »
Martin:

To me this is a completely fascinating subject---eg golf courses that were routed and built on "park" (land) estates.

The reason it completely fascinates me is it most certainly could show how golf course architecture was influenced by various adaptations of landscape architecture that came well before golf course architecture even began.

There was a good deal of discussion about this on some other threads in the last year that mostly were on the continuing discussion, nay, argument about the influence of the Arts and Crafts Movement (and it's offshoot the "English country" garden as primarily developed by such as Gertrude Jekyll). Obviously most of those discussions or arguments are too trivial, too deep or too contentious to be followed on here by most. ;)

But what about those massive estates (parks) that had been utilized for the application of 17th-19th century "landscape architecture" on generally massive scale? There are some that were quite geometric in basic layout but more interesting were those that were the more natural lines of some of the early so-called "English Landscape" architects, namely the likes of William Kent, Lancelot “Capability” Brown and Humphrey Repton.

Perhaps the most interesting to me is the so-called “Serpentine” landscape architecture style that Capability Brown became noted for.

You can just imagine how that basic landscape architecture style on a massive scale could be ideally suited for the routing of a golf course in one of those massive English “Park” estates. I think that’s what became known as the “parkland” style golf course.

But the most interesting thing is Capability Brown, Kent, Repton did what they did up to a century or more before man-made golf architecture even began, yet what they did eventually had perhaps a significant influence on what golf architecture came to be, certainly in a routing sense known as the "parkland" style.

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