Is Kapalua underrated to non-architectural junkies?

[Jordan Wall]

In GD it got a #75 public ranking
the last time there were rankings by GD.  
Only 14 public tracks cracked the
Top-100 US list.
Sahalee has happened to squeeze
into the Top-100 US list the past
couple rankings and I can tell you in
a second which is a better course.

Now I am not saying Sahalee is
a bad course, it is not by any
means, but to the rest of the golf
world, is Kapalua underrated?

This is not meant to be a GD rant,
either, but that is just an example of where
I see Kapalua as underrated.

I have not played many of the
'top courses', but I feel I am
smart enough to determine Kapalua
is one helluva course!

[Michael Moore]

Jordan -

Every year while many are snowed in, gorgeous high definition pictures of the greatest golfers in the world playing the stunning Kapalua course are beamed all around the country.

The Golf Digest panel is comprised entirely of architectural junkies . . . raters, geeks, Joe ESPN and casual onlookers looooooooove Kapalua, decked out with 2007 Benzes, with all of their heart when it appears in the dead of winter as if by magic . . .

[Aaron Katz]

I think so, yes.  Kapalua does have a couple of weak holes, IMO, but it also has several of the best holes I've ever played (1, 5, 6, 17, and 18 especially).  I think that, for some reason, raters will only put a Hawaii course so far up in the rankings.  Maybe because Hawaii has a rap for being a haven of resorts.  Also, I think some raters must be uncomfortable with how far the ball runs out at Kapalua, as well as the grain.

[Brad Tufts]

According to GD, Kapalua is #5 in Hawaii, behind The Prince, Kuki'o, Mauna Kea, and the Challenge at Manele.

I've played the Prince, and found it to be a mix of starkly beautiful, yet impossible to play holes, and bland, Florida/Hawaii resort-type holes.  There were a few good ones in there, but not close to the number Kapalua has to offer.  I would think KP would be ranked higher.  After playing it more than once, I have realized it is much more than a taste of summer in January on my TV.  Any thoughts about Kuki'o, MK and the Challenge being ranked higher?  

For reference, the remainder of the Hawaii list is as follows:

6.  Kauai Lagoons - Kiele
7.  Ko'olau
8.  Makena - South
9.  Wailea - Gold
10.  Hualalai - Nicklaus
11.  Turtle Bay - Palmer
12.  Poipu Bay
13.  Wailea - Emerald
14.  Princeville Makai
15.  Mauna Lani - North

The Prince is in the US Top 100, and #s 3-8 are in the Top 100 public.  I have played The Prince, Kapalua Plan., Kiele, Wailea Gold and Poipu.  Omissions might include Nanea, Pu'ukea, Hapuna...Links at Kuilima...any others?

[wsmorrison]

Jordan,

You are still young and it is better to learn now rather than later that golf rankings are a waste of time.  Get out and see golf course for YOURSELF and figure out the merits of each course or each course within an architect's portfolio (that is if you know what is original and what isn't).  Rankings are a means to sell magazines and arrange play on courses not otherwise available.  They raise some interesting arguments but some of them become just plain silly.  A question such as is Sand Hills better than NGLA is inane.  Then you get some people that like to determine which is #24 or #25 in North Dakota or any other state.  Talk about a waste....

The only people that should care if Kapalua is underrated is the owners of the resort because it translates into marketing and sales.  

[Aaron Katz]

Jordan,

You are still young and it is better to learn now rather than later that golf rankings are a waste of time.  Get out and see golf course for YOURSELF and figure out the merits of each course or each course within an architect's portfolio (that is if you know what is original and what isn't).  Rankings are a means to sell magazines and arrange play on courses not otherwise available.  They raise some interesting arguments but some of them become just plain silly.  A question such as is Sand Hills better than NGLA is inane.  Then you get some people that like to determine which is #24 or #25 in North Dakota or any other state.  Talk about a waste....

The only people that should care if Kapalua is underrated is the owners of the resort because it translates into marketing and sales.  

I disagree with this.  We should all care about rankings to an exten.  I think that when a solid, but bland, Jones (Rees, Robert Sr., Robert Jr. -- take your pick), Fazio, or Nicklaus track gets superior rankings to more interesting (but quirkier) tracks like Plantation, that compels developers to hire designers of the Jones, Fazio, or Nicklaus ilk for their new courses.  I realize that we're seeing a renaissance of sorts, with C & C, Doak, Hanse, and Silva getting some plum sites to work with.  But I'd still think that the typical "hit it here" course is the dominant style of architecture.  I think that the rankings have had some influence on that.

[Brad Tufts]

Ok,

I only cite the rankings as a talking point.  I don't really care how each individual/publication rates/ranks the courses they have seen or played or write articles about.  I was expecting somebody to scoff at the printed rankings here as usual.

I am not trying to brainwash Jordan or anyone else into thinking that the rankings anywhere are gospel.  I thought it interesting to demonstrate that Kapalua is not that highly rated in Hawaii despite my view of it as the best the state has to offer.  Thus, the answer to your question Jordan is no, as the non-architectural junkies probably view it more accurately in this case.  It may not be for the same reasons, but I have a hard time believing KP is behind 4 courses in Hawaii.

I don't disagree with you Wayne, but your comments have a finality to them that do not promote further discussion, which the rankings might....

Don't worry, I'm still going to buy the Flynn book....

[wsmorrison]

Aaron,

The fact that solid but bland courses--with a great deal of visuals but less architectural substance get rated so highly and the changes made to classics in order to maintain or raise their rankings adds to the reasons for abandoning those rankings.

Brad,

Don't get me wrong, I think there is some value to rankings, but not the way they are actually getting done in the magazines.  I admire Tom Doak's abilities and approach to quantifying golf course rankings.  His knowledge is something I paid to obtain by purchasing his book---thankfully before it got famous.  It is a simple yet refined approach.  I do not put much stock in the methods used by magazines and the negative impact they have on golf courses.

I'm glad you won't hold my ranking rancor against me and still buy the Flynn book    I know great rankers and a few questionable ones.  It seems the overall results are often not so great.

[Jordan Wall]

Brad,

I would have a hard time believing there are four other courses in Hawaii better than Kapalua.
I would have a hard believing there are four resorts with a better course than Kapalua (Bandon, Pebble, then Kapalua?)

I just think Kapalua is a fantastic course and wonder if a low ranking may lead to non-architectural junkies believeing it is not as good as it really is.
But, then again, who can really argue the greatness of 14-18?

[cary lichtenstein]

Jordan:

How do you compare the Prince with Kapalua?

Cary

[Jerry Kluger]

Cary: Let me jump in and my two cents - I've only played a few courses in Hawaii but I didn't think anything I've seen could compare with Kapalua Plantation.  I wasn't very impressed with Princeville and Kiele was not in the league with Kapalua.

[Brad Tufts]

Jordan,

While I do think KP is at or above the level of any other course in Hawaii, I don't think it is #3 in the "resort golf offering" category...Bandon, Pebble, Pinehurst, Turnberry, Gleneagles, Ballybunion may be above it, just off the top of my head....Also, the rankings seem to show that it is underrated among those that are supposed to know their architecture.  The golf junkie seems to think the world of it, and I'm surprised more architecture-minded folks do not think the same.  The regular golfer may like it for the whales, the drink cart girl, or the Norfolk pines, but there is some great golf design there, something that is in relatively short supply considering the prominence of Hawaii golf.

Cary,

The Prince is beautiful, photogenic, and different, but Kapalua is much more interesting, playable (especially considering the wind) and strategic while also being beautiful, photogenic, and different.

Jerry,

I agree.  Kiele is built around the crescendo of a few holes, namely the weird #16.  Poipu is much the same, though I am a fan.

-Brad

[cary lichtenstein]

Jerry:

I'm surprised you were not impressed with Princeville. I was. I thought the topography was excellent and the course alot of fun with gops of variety. I did play it twice, so I got a real good look at it. It was very wet, so it played a little on the long side.

I am playing Kapalua next month and looking forward to it.

Cary

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

While I do think KP is at or above the level of any other course in Hawaii, I don't think it is #3 in the "resort golf offering" category...Bandon, Pebble, Pinehurst, Turnberry, Gleneagles, Ballybunion may be above it, just off the top of my head....Also, the rankings seem to show that it is underrated among those that are supposed to know their architecture.  The golf junkie seems to think the world of it, and I'm surprised more architecture-minded folks do not think the same.  The regular golfer may like it for the whales, the drink cart girl, or the Norfolk pines, but there is some great golf design there, something that is in relatively short supply considering the prominence of Hawaii golf.

Brad,

I did not say so but my intention was of comparing resorts inside the U.S.A.
Obviously there are many in Europe that would outlast many of the top U.S. resorts, or so I hear.

As a resort, Kapalua is great, and out of the three courses in Maui I have played, Kaplua is the best: bar none.
In fact, it may be my favorite course I have played, and possibly the best I have played as well.  
It is right up there.


Cary,

I will be playing the Princeville course next year (the one in the GD ranking, I dont think it's the ocean one..)

You also mentioned when you played Princeville played somewhat wet when you played it.
Possibly that is good for the course.
Several others I have talked with about Princeville, including some from this site, have mentioned that when it is firm, it gets really really firm and most of the time even irons will run through the fairway, and out of play.  Obviously their view on the course is a lot different as the course played ridiculously, but I am personally excited to go and try it out for myself.

I do have to tell you to enjoy Kapalua!
Honestly, I do not know how you cannot.
It is wonderful and if I had made times on other courses in Maui I would give serious thought to switching courses as to play the Plantation more than once.
It is truly amazing.

JW