News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Matt_Ward

The Wonders of Woodcrest
« on: October 14, 2006, 04:29:42 PM »
I would like to get the comments from those who have played this very unique and fun William Flynn course located in Cherry Hill, NJ.

I played it a number of years back and recently returned for an updating on how things are progressing.

A superb piece of property and to Flynn's considerable credit the design uses all the elements the land provides. To the club's credit a number of trees have been taken down and I have been told that more will be eliminated shortly when the funds are available.

Not very long at just over 6,500 yards but the range of holes is indeed well done and the four par-5 holes are designed with the perfect blend of risk and reward. The final trio also brings you home in grand fashion.


TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 04:49:48 PM »
If you can't draw the ball off the tee you may have something of a struggle at Woodcrest.

Some of the original Flynn holes were across the street and lost Matt.

The club once asked me to do a design evolution report of Woodcrest and I told them---no problem at all. Then I asked them if they wanted me to say the course was more William Flynn or more Fred Ruttenberg, or about half and half?  ;)

Hey Fred, how many years have you been on the board of GAP? I don't think you were on it when William Flynn was still alive but it was pretty close, right?

wsmorrison

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 05:09:41 PM »
In 1925 J. Wesley Goldthorp purchased 1,200 acres of New Jersey farmland near the New Jersey Turnpike and Route 295 between Ellisburg and Berlin.  Goldthorp believed that a proposed railroad line would be extended from Camden to Berlin, which would make his newly acquired property far more valuable as residential development rather than farmland.  The plans for the railway spur were laid aside with the onset of the stock market crash.

In order to maintain control over the property, Goldthorp decided to develop a public access golf course to be named Woodcrest and hired William Flynn to design a course and contracted Toomey and Flynn to construct it.  Nine holes opened in the spring of 1930 with the remaining nine holes opening later that same year.  According to Jack Goldthorp, an additional five holes were planned and cleared across Evesham Road although they were never constructed. The total cost of construction was placed at $30,000 to $35,000.

Despite the Great Depresssion, Woodcrest was a successful daily fee course and one of the finest in the region.  It was considered a challenging course with some of the deepest rough in the district.

The Delaware Valley region of Philadelphia had a “Gentlemen’s Agreement” at nearly all the clubs to exclude Jewish members.  There were three Jewish clubs on the other side of the river near Philadelphia but there were no such opportunities for Jewish men and women in southern New Jersey.  In 1946 Bob Galanter and Carl Auerbach met with J. Wesley Goldthorp in an attempt to purchase the golf course and convert it to a private facility open to Jewish members.  Goldthorp did not think the project could succeed and declined to sell.  These men then approached the owners of another public golf course, Iron Rock and purchased the facility for $100,000 renaming the private club Crest Hollow Country Club.  The founders had their club but knew that it was not nearly the quality of golf that Woodcrest offered.  The men went back to Goldthorp when it was rumored that he needed cash and offered to purchase Woodcrest.  This time Goldthorp was convinced to sell and the club was acquired for a total of $118,750 including tractors and mowers.  The club then sold Iron Rock and the membership moved into their new clubhouse in 1948.  


While some of the holes are routed in the same corridors as Flynn's plan, the bunkering is vastly different in terms of style and numbers.  Flynn's public course plan had much wider fairways and far fewer bunkers.  A 1940 aerial photograph compared to a modern aerial clearly demonstrates the differences between the Flynn plan and today's course.  

The greens are small, severely sloped and a great challenge.

Much of the bunkering is of a different style altogether--more like Rees Jones than William Flynn.

The course is heavily treed.  Good to hear there is a tree removal plan in place.

The club spent a lot of money renovating the clubhouse.  They also must have spent a lot laying ugly white (painted?) stones along the banks of the streams that run through the property.

The nines were flipped.  Superb piece of property?  Hardly.  Finishing in grand fashion?  Within what context?  The Wonders of Woodcrest?   Look up the definition of hyperbole.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 05:18:49 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 05:17:46 PM »
Wayne,

I like Woodcrest, I think it's a neat golf course, but, I couldn't agree more with you with regard to the rocks.

What was someone thinking ?

Tree removal, Rock removal and a return to basics would enhance the golf course which has some great holes.

It's sporty and fun to play.

TEPaul,

Leave Fred alone, he's a nice fellow.

wsmorrison

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 05:21:04 PM »
Agreed, Pat.  It is sporty and fun.  But a wonder?  Maybe it is a wonder some things were done as they were.  If some of your suggestions were followed, it would be enhanced.  There are some excellent holes, but there's a lot wrong with the presentation.

TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2006, 05:21:40 PM »
Wayne:

Fred just called to tell me if you set even one foot inside the property lines of Woodcrest he will have you arrested and jailed for trespassing.

And following that, Matt Ward called to tell me he thinks you've become an elitist snob now that you've joined that high-fallutin' club of yours.

TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2006, 05:24:13 PM »
"TEPaul,
Leave Fred alone, he's a nice fellow."

Yes, he is a nice fellow, Patrick, just like you are. And he's a friend of mine, just like you are. So, would you mind telling me why in the world would I want to leave him alone?

wsmorrison

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2006, 05:32:33 PM »
"Fred just called to tell me if you set even one foot inside the property lines of Woodcrest he will have you arrested and jailed for trespassing."

Tom,
I've met Fred one time when he was gracious enough to show me around Woodcrest.  I've spoken to him on the phone a few times and emailed back and forth over a period of time.  He seems to be a fine fellow.  I calls 'em as I sees 'em though.  If I'm a pariah there, we'll just add it to the ever-increasing list of courses that have me on the "Do Not Let In" list.

"Matt Ward called to tell me he thinks you've become an elitist snob now that you've joined that high-fallutin' club of yours."

Really, Tom.  I think they must have mistaken me for my identical twin brother from St. Louis.  Besides, MW thought me an elitist snob just for hanging out with you--the original elitist slob.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2006, 05:33:02 PM »
Wayne,

I think that's a good way to phrase it, the "presentation" is wrong.

I think it's a really neat golf course that would benefit from some "informed" tinkering and fine tuning.

A return to basics wouldn't be a bad path to follow.

I believe there's a schematic in the club house that details the, over the road holes.

It's got some really good par 3's, 4's and 5's and could be a course that you'd love to play day in and day out.

TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2006, 05:40:48 PM »
"Besides, MW thought me an elitist snob just for hanging out with you--the original elitist slob."

Really? Well then, Matt Ward doesn't know squat. I'm a man of the people and for the people if ever there was one. Now go back to your room and stay there, you snivelling little weanie.

wsmorrison

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2006, 06:01:54 PM »
Well, you're right about Matt Ward not knowing squat.  I'd like to come out of my room, if I may.  I have an anniversary dinner to go to and Sue will be quite disturbed with me if you don't let me out.  I am sorry I said you were an elitist--but I did say slob and not snob.  You couldn't be further from an elitist or a snob.  Don't tell me it is all due to your liberal NY background.  The Quaker and Philadelphia Saint in you has much to do with it, I'm sure.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 06:02:32 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2006, 06:09:01 PM »
Sorry, I didn't notice you called me a slob, not a snob. You think I'm a slob? How the hell could that be since I have all my clothes hand-made at Sy Syms' bespoke establishment? Marcie Syms is my own private fashion consultant and she's the greatest although I wish she would tone it down some with those F and MF words.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 06:11:50 PM by TEPaul »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2006, 09:19:44 PM »
Back in 1993-1994, I spent two seasons as an Asst. Pro at Woodcrest.  The course, while decent, was never one of my favorites in this area.  It had too many trees, very narrow fairways/playing corridors and very small greens.  To me, it is unlike any other Flynn course in the Philly area.

After I left, the club hired a great new Supt. who I understand has done quite a bit of good work on the golf course.  It is now always one of the best conditioned courses around.  With a strong tree removal program, and a widening of the fairways, the course would improve greatly.  There are some good holes mixed in, but for me the narrowness was always a drawback.

Wayne,

Funny you mention the "white rocks".  About 4 years ago, the FORMER greens chairman at Tavistock played a round at Woodcrest and liked the look. :o :o  So a few days later, he decides to "white rock" our stream fronting our 7th green.  Needless to say...they were not well received by the general membership.  The offending rocks were gone in less than a week and the greens chairman was not far behind. ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2006, 10:24:31 PM »
JSlonis,

The back nine with its parallel out and back configuration is narrow, but, I think that's by choice.

I think the trees could easily removed and the fairways easily widened, if the membership was aware of the benefits and wanted to.

Too many golf courses are caught up in the "difficulty" issue today, and feel that they have to defend par by any means possible.  But, in most cases they're not defending it against their membership, but visiting pros or ams.

More clubs need to return the golf courses to the members.
Aren't they the ones who use it 99.9 % of the time ?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 10:34:01 AM »
"More clubs need to return the golf courses to the members.
Aren't they the ones who use it 99.9 % of the time?"

Patrick,

Hear, hear!

But what about the technology issue?  If we went back to the 1930s or when these courses were built, wouldn't the members with their new technology have their way with them today?  Aren't many updates to courses made in order to maintain the relevancy of par over time?

Personally, I think that technology, swing mechanics, physical and mental conditioning, and discretionary free time have elevated play disproportionally.  While the average player may have improved a bit, the top have done so dramatically.  In my opinion, it does not make a great deal of sense to add a bunch of yardage and hazards which seem not to bother the best very much, but just kills the 18 handicapper.

   

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 10:48:06 AM »
Lou,

Flynn and others were proponents of "Elasticity" vis a vis added length.

My "return it to the members" comment was related to the issues of tree plantings, narrowing of fairways, lengthening of rough, etc., etc..

TEPaul

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 12:15:03 PM »
"My "return it to the members" comment was related to the issues of tree plantings, narrowing of fairways, lengthening of rough, etc., etc.."

Patrick:

You are dead right about that. If some yahoos in a club try to maintain that kind of thing will make the course too easy for good players I strenously maintain that the easier/harder equation is far far more in the realm of maintenance practices anyway such as firm and fast "through the green" but particularly the firmness of green surfaces combined to some degree with green speed. That's the area a course can be made far more challenging to even very good players far more than most everyone realizes.

This is the unique realm of the IMM.  ;)

The only thing that can throw the kibosh into that (IMM) if it is done well is Mother Nature when she rains. When that happens to a particular degree, really good players like Tour pros will kill any course anywhere almost no matter what its architecture or length is. There is almost no length defense left in the world today to these elite players even if some of those ultra long courses are soft. Basically they just can't build courses long enough today to effect elite players length-wise.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 12:22:41 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2006, 12:21:19 PM »
"Maybe Matt needs to see more Flynn"

BillV,

In addition to seeing more Flynn, he needs a better understanding of what it is he is seeing.

"I would like to get the comments from those who have played this very unique and fun William Flynn course located in Cherry Hill, NJ."

MW,

What is very unique about Woodcrest?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 12:22:43 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2006, 03:00:02 PM »
Patrick,

I think TEP's firm and fast through and including the greens is true, but on and around the greens, the impact again is disproportionate for the 18-handicapper.  Firm up the greens and surrounds and most bogey players' scores and time per round will go through the roof.


Elasticity was/is considered by most architects.  I am not sure that the issue of width is as simple.  One of the professed benefits of the new technology is how much straighter the ball goes.  Tightening up a course with rough, bunkers, trees, etc. may be the only way to keep it from actually playing wider than it did when dispersion was a bigger issue.  

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2006, 07:41:03 PM »
I am very much looking forward to my first round there next Thursday. I'll post my thoughts/opinions after my round.

For a guy who used to play about 50 rounds a year, this year has been a bit different. I think I've played 5 rounds this year . . . so my next two weeks with Bulle this Tues and Woodcrest next Thurs should end up being the highlight of my golfing year.

I never thought anything would replace golf as my #1 passion, but the birth of my first child has really made golf an afterthought. I'm sure that as time goes on I'll get back to my borderline obsession with golf, but for now my weekends are all about the baby. However when I can call a round of golf a "work day", the passion comes right back ;D ;)

-Ted

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2006, 08:09:14 PM »
Lou,

When you reference the 18 handicapper you have to understand how he became an 18 handicap.

Stroke control prevents players from taking excessive scores on a number of holes and acts as a scoring cap.

The handicap system takes the lowest 10 out of the last 20 scores.

Essentially, if par was 72 and the course from the tees he plays was rated 72, his 10 scores would create a differential between 720 strokes, thus creating his handicap.
But, the system doesn't account for the other half of his higher 10 scores, or the impact of stroke control.

My point is that we shouldn't assume that an 18 handicap will bogey each hole and produce a round of 90 every time he plays.

Once you understand that, you can begin to look at the impact of architecture and/or maintainance in a more liberal context.  (I know that's difficult for you  ;D)

To address your issue of disproportionality, you again, have to look at the total spectrum of scores shot by the 18 handicap, and not just the 10 lowest of the last 20.

Firm & Fast around the greens can be adapted to by high handicap players.  They don't expect to make birdies and pars, other than occassionally.   They usually don't hit a high number of greens in regulation, and, they're usually using shorter clubs when approaching the green.

Since courses don't transition from spongey one day to firm & fast the next, the process is over a good amount of time, thus making it far easier for ALL golfers to gradually adjust to the changing conditions.

You and others tend to view the process in the context of spongey one day and F&F the next, when nothing could be further from reality.

Once you understand the time frame in which the golf course is transitioned, it's a lot easier to understand how higher handicaps can reasonably adjust to the change in conditions.

With respect to accuracy, I agree, the ball goes straighter.

And, I think that's another reason for F&F conditions with wide fairways.

Since golfers rarely hit a ball exactly where they aim it, Firm, fast fairways will continue to direct, if not deflect, the ball along that line.

When you have 50 yards of run-out, you'd better hit that ball perfectly or the terrain and/or your deviation from center, and/or the shape of your ball flight will result in a ball in the rough or worse.

In some instances, wide fairways that are firm and fast present a narrower, or more difficult target than soft, normal or narrowed fairways.

I think you have to see the product in its application.

I have no doubt that you'd appreciate what happens to the game of golf under real F&F conditions.

As TEPaul stated, the one fly in the ointment can be Mother Nature, but, if the ground has been properly prepared, in a few days the golf course will return to the IMM.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Wonders of Woodcrest
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2006, 09:17:07 PM »
Patrick,

An 18 handicapper cannot take more than a 7 on a hole.  In my 30+ years of experience playing a lot of less tournament golf than you (i.e. quite possibly playing with more "average golfers" than you), the biggest difference I saw was on and around the greens.

While I personally prefer F & F through and including the green, I don't think that these conditions favor the average player.  If not, I'd think courses would reflect that preference as water and fertilizer are expensive.  Most high handicappers I know would prefer wide and firm fairways, but soft, receptive greens running 8' - 9' on surfaces that are not too heavily contoured.

BTW, when it comes to golf, I tend to be a progressive/liberal (golf should evolve with and reflect the times).  I find it more than slightly ironic that most of my politically liberal friends are right-wing nut-case whacko reactionaries when it comes to golf.

 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 09:18:17 PM by Lou_Duran »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back