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Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
CB Mac Cup Matches
« on: September 24, 2006, 07:38:09 PM »
Anybody coming to St. Louis this week?
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Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2006, 09:06:05 PM »
Hunt-
Did you attend/participate? How were the updates at SLCC received?

Buck
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Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2006, 09:52:53 PM »
I played in the satellite tournament at Boone on Friday and followed with a shootout at SLCC (Our friend Mr. Lewis won) in the afternoon.

Boone was unreal rolling 12-13 on the greens with a counterbalance of playing blue tees.

Many liked the changes at SLCC and found the greens to be a real test. The par 3's seem to always garner high praise.

 
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wsmorrison

Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 08:03:04 AM »
While I like the par 3s at St. Louis CC, I find the Redan (16th) is by far the weakest I've seen anywhere.  Interestingly, the Biarritz and Eden are the 2nd and 3rd holes and are nearly the same length from the back tees at 213 and 207 yards respectively but played in opposite directions.  If there is any wind, it would make the holes play different yardage as there is not much overall elevation change.  My favorite par 3s are the Short (7th) and Crater (12th) with its great false front.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 08:03:48 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 08:34:26 AM »
Wayne,

Yes, you have mentioned your love of #16 before ;).

Actually, 2 has a very significant elevation change-uphill. Additionally, yardages range from 175-240 on #2 and 165-210 on #3.

Rarely would you find yourself holding the same iron on both tee boxes on the same day.


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John Kavanaugh

Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2006, 08:37:17 AM »
Hunt,

Who hits iron on 2...Why play at Boone Valley in this event..isn't it a PB Dye course..
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Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 06:32:09 PM »
Wayne-
I haven't played many Redans other than 16 at SLCC (a reverse I believe), why is it so inferior to the others? I assume your comparison is to other Mac/Raynor courses and not all 'redans'.

Buck

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Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

wsmorrison

Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 07:07:12 PM »
Buck,

Here's a sampling of photographs of Redan holes.  Sorry to say that my photo of SLCC's 16th was taken late in the season.  I still think it evident that it lacks many of the qualities of the others in the collection of photographs.  There is hardly any left to right slope, it might have been a better hole if the green melded with the natural slope better rather having the bunker dug out of the slope short and left of the green.  The bunkering seems as uninspired as the green.  I wonder if the green was redone at some point.

The view of the club building beyond the line of play reduces the hole's aesthetics considerably.

St. Louis CC 16th



Philadelphia Country Club  7th



Huntingdon Valley 3rd



Shinnecock Hills 7th (A Flynn green currently played from the original Macdonald tee and not from the abandoned Flynn tee--if returned, and we hope it will, the hole will really shine)



National Golf Links of America 4th



Somerset Hills 2nd



Fishers Island 2nd



Piping Rock 3rd



Westhampton 7th



Yale 13th



« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 07:08:57 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2006, 07:19:59 PM »
Wayne-

The cant is some 4-5 feet from front left to back right for frame of reference.

Your picture was taken in January, I believe, and the stables are not seen spring through fall

No major work has been done on the green complex and in fact, a portion of the back edge of the green was restored recently.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 07:22:35 PM by Hunt »
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wsmorrison

Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2006, 07:42:17 PM »
If it is the case that the falloff is 4-5 feet, I stand corrected.  I did not get that sense at all.  I rolled a number of balls on the green and there seemed little slope on the green.  The lack of a real kicker (due to the bunker) increases the demand on the tee shot almost requiring an aerial approach, right?  Maybe I am full of it, but my sense in seeing it the one time was that it was inferior to a number of other Redans, Macdonald/Raynor or otherwise.  I'd be happy to keep an open mind and try it again when I visit my brother in St. Louis sometime next year.
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2006, 11:04:13 PM »
It's not the greatest redan in the world but it is at least as good or better than a number of the versions Wayne posts, particularly Philly CC (?) and Fishers Island. I'd probably add The Creek to that list as well.

The real workhorses at SLCC, though, are the Par 5s. Taken together, they are probably CB Mac's best.

To be fair, though, a couple of the pics you post are better attributed to SR alone.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 11:05:31 PM by SPDB »
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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2006, 11:04:23 PM »
Wayne, thanks for the pictures. I'll throw in my two cents and say that the front left bunker seems to fight the design of a redan. I wonder if Macdonald and Raynor put it in, or if it was added later. Does anyone know?

(Calling George Bahto...)
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:CB Mac Cup Matches
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2006, 11:29:58 PM »
Hi Bill:

The bunkering on the SL 16th is certainly different but that is not uncommon. Occasionally you get that in their architecture

The oldest stuff I have shows the left greenside bunkering as it is shown in Wayne's photo.

There is no "shoulder" on the left but the green is a good one.

The way that left bunker sits is not in any way wrong.

If there was a "shoulder" there the bunker would be properly placed but would be behind the kick-in shoulder and run the length of the side of the green to catch the more aggressive shots.

It may have been modified over the years but if my memory serves me correctly, they have a lot of old info at the club

Perhaps the shoulder was removed over the years.

SLCC has a great set of par-3s as a group. The use of the terrain in the routing of the course is excellent.

Very fine golf course and their 18th is a one of a kind great hole

Their club history has an excellent topo drawing of the course - in color - as a liner for the book.

Bill, contact me e mail plz
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson
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