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Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
the "right" architect for new links courses
« on: September 20, 2006, 05:20:03 AM »
a couple of the threads below got me thinking... almost all the new links courses that have sprung up in ireland over the last 25 years are very much NOT resort courses... in the couple of instances where hotels have been developed also (e.g. portmarnock links), they have at least been tasteful and relatively at peace with the surroundings...

what appears to be a worrying trend going forward is that the only new links developments in the UK seem to be big money, big idea resort courses (see the trump development in aberdeen and castle stuart in inverness) with huge ugly hotels and two courses being developed...

...almost all the best links courses for me are where you feel at one with nature (the old course is an exception as playing into the heart of the town is part of the history) and where you feel far removed from the madding crowds...

...anyway, all of that is preamble really - it got me thinking if the right architects were being used for these developments... tom fazio II... gil hanse... i'm such a traditionalist that i'd much rather see a local boy with less experience of gca but intimate knowledge of the land being employed to design these courses... am i being naive?

(and yeah, i know it all comes down to money and 'house' architects and employees etc...)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 06:03:08 AM »
i'm such a traditionalist that i'd much rather see a local boy with less experience of gca but intimate knowledge of the land being employed to design these courses... am i being naive?

(and yeah, i know it all comes down to money and 'house' architects and employees etc...)

You might be interested in Mike Keiser's book about Bandon. It covers the choice of David Kidd, who obviously was not a local to Oregon or the US. The way I read it, Keiser saw a market opportunity and basically tried to import "the old dead Scottish guy" atmosphere to the US and Oregon.

Perhaps the new developers do not want to compete with the "old dead guys" of Scotland, because the Scotts would never accept that a new course could be as good as say Prestwick? Thus, they turn to a comfortable choice in a new location.

I agree with what you are saying as last night I was watching a Ryder Cup preview, and for the life of me, I cannot imagine going to Ireland to play the K Club when I can find it all over the place here, but obviously in the words of Tom Paul, it is a big world out there.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 06:48:32 AM »
Ally:

If a little town in Scotland or Ireland were developing a links on a shoestring budget, they might take a chance on the local boy.  But most new developments must invest significant capital to get the permits to go ahead, and once they've got a lot of money at risk, they are likely to go with someone who has a proven track record.  

You seem to imply that an outside architect would necessarily tear up more of the land to build the course and it would be less natural -- I disagree with that premise.  The most important thing is to find an architect who knows exactly what he is doing and who doesn't want to tear up more ground than necessary.

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 06:57:26 AM »
Seems to me these new developments are being built to attract a golfer to the area that would not come to the older courses.  Believe it or not, the US has developed a player that doesn't like much of links golf(i have had several say they would not go back).....in order to get him there they need that product....not saying I like it....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 06:57:37 AM »
i know you're right really, tom... guess it's just the romantic in me... and i guess i'm just really worried that donald trump and tom fazio II will make a balls of a great opportunity in my home town... i've been designing courses in my head on that stretch of land for 25 years and the thoughts of a seven storey monstrosity of a hotel being planted there is quite galling...

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 07:22:13 AM »
actually, when i just read an article like the one i post below with regards to a "donald trump signature design", then i almost burst into tears:

The First Donald J. Trump Design
Yep, the Donald is calling Ocean Trails his. This Fairways and Greens review looks at the soon-to-open course, which Jim Fazio had been linked to.

It’s simply a new golf course, and that brings up a vital point: This is no longer the work of Pete Dye or even Tom Fazio, who laid out Trump’s three East Coast courses.

“Is it a Pete Dye design? No. Is it a Tom Fazio design? No. It’s a Trump Signature Design golf course,” Van der Goes says. The man himself concurs, then explains why he went from design apprentice to the project’s lead architect.

“I could have just fixed it up a little bit and opened it a year ago, but I decided not to do that,” Trump told Fairways & Greens in April. “It’s a Donald J. Trump design, you know. Frankly, no architect would tell you to do what I did, especially on the first hole. Like using Palos Verdes stone to put that No. 1 tee box 40 feet up the hill. It’s too expensive, but I did it anyway, I did the right thing. That tee used to be down in a well; now it’s almost 100 yards farther back and high up, above the ocean.”

And we can’t overlook the waterfalls. After all, they’ll be overlooking us: After hitting right into them from the No. 1 fairway or No. 17 tee, golfers will drive their carts under their upper reaches, á la Disneyland, and marvel at the manmade wizardry of it all — of pumping 8,000 gallons per minute into a pond below the green, and somehow making it look natural enough to fit in with the rest of the landscape. Some people will find it kitschy, but we call it cool.

I’d joke about this,but you’re already laughing

 :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2006, 07:23:25 AM »
I agree with what you are saying as last night I was watching a Ryder Cup preview, and for the life of me, I cannot imagine going to Ireland to play the K Club when I can find it all over the place here, but obviously in the words of Tom Paul, it is a big world out there.
Agree with your reservations about the K Club.  However, when US developers are trying to get the "feel" of an Irish or Scottish links (not much demand for the "feel" of an English links, I note ;) ) is it that surprising that some over this side are trying to get the "feel" of US style target golf?
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2006, 07:58:56 AM »
is it that surprising that some over this side are trying to get the "feel" of US style target golf?

I am sure I have mentioned it before, but the former Captain of Enniscrone's favorite place to travel is Myrtle Beach!

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2006, 08:35:02 AM »
Bill:

Donald Steel has retired from the business, to run the English Golf Union.  His two associates have formed their own firm, Mackenzie and Ebert.

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2006, 10:06:54 AM »
'Mackenzie' now thats a good name for an GCA!

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2006, 02:15:44 PM »
""i've been designing courses in my head on that stretch of land for 25 years""

Ally
And I thought I was all alone . :)

For the last 23 years ,being 'choppered back from offshore' , I have laid out holes along that stretch of coastline , from Murcar to Newburgh .

I keep meaning to smuggle a camera with me , to take some pre-construction aerials of the McTrump .

Small World.  ;)

Brian

Doug Siebert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2006, 12:45:27 AM »
Hmmm, I wonder how large waterfalls next to the green and that you drive under work in places where the wind can blow 50-60 mph during play?

Having those winds during rain squalls is bad enough, but if its some stanky pond water that's been run through pumps 10,000 times over the past few months getting blown all over me I'm going to be forced to defy the unwritten GCA rule against using wide selections of 4 letter words to describe a "signature architect" ;)

Wow, I just realized I was so annoyed by the thought of a Trump signature design with multiple waterfalls I didn't even notice the "drive under" part of Ally's post.  Trump's course may be the first in the UK that requires carts :-[
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Eric Franzen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:the "right" architect for new links courses
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2006, 01:05:09 AM »
Doug,

Your fear of stinky pond water at Trump's future course is overexaggerated.

If I remember correctly the waterfalls at Trump National LA smelled chlorinated.