News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:20:01 AM »
Tom has had the opportunity to work on some spectacular proporties. PD, Sebonak, Cape Kidnappers,  Ballyneal...etc. What Doak courses have been built on average sites and how did they turn out?
Logged

Tom Huckaby

Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2006, 11:27:10 AM »
I wouldn't call Stone Eagle the greatest of sites for golf... it's a very steep rocky mountainside and while it does provide some very cool views, carving a golf course out of that had to be one hell of a challenge.

And I think he succeeded there pretty damn well, as well as anyone could.

TH
Logged

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2006, 11:28:52 AM »
Brian- The Rawls course in Lubbock Texas was built on a flat cotton field. The team moved and created everything. The course was the next course built after Pac Dunes and the one before Cape Kidnappers. It flies under the radar, but, in principle, is way better than most. The surrounding berm that blocks views of some of the off-site visuals is an amazing use of earth moving, too.

From the pictures, One could also argue that Cape Kidnappers was a tough site too.

Ballyneal's sand base made it easier to work with, but as it laid on the ground, was not ideal. The severity of the dunes had to be melted down to create the golfing grounds. As Ran highlights Bruce Hepner's "The Great Meltdown" quote, in his review.

Good one, Tom.
Logged
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

tlavin

Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 11:38:02 AM »
Lost Dunes, in Bridgman Michigan, is on the site of a former sand quarry, I believe, so it is favorable for drainage and turf purposes, but Mr. Doak had a very interesting challenge with the routing because Interstate 94 goes directly through the property.  He did a marvelous job of routing the course despite this fact.  
Logged

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 01:31:29 PM »
Charlotte Golf Links is only  an avg site at best.  Course is popular in town but I think it has to be Doak's worst course from what I've read about and heard on this site.  Unfortunately you drive into a shopping center to enter the course.  Very strange now.
Logged

Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2006, 02:15:20 PM »
Quote from: John Shimp on September 12, 2006, 01:31:29 PM
Charlotte Golf Links is only  an avg site at best.  Course is popular in town but I think it has to be Doak's worst course from what I've read about and heard on this site.  Unfortunately you drive into a shopping center to enter the course.  Very strange now.

I saw Charlotte Golf Links credited on Renaissance's website but had never heard anything about it. I guess that explains why.
Logged

Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 02:47:13 PM »
How was the property at Stonewall?
Logged

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2006, 08:56:02 PM »
I've only played three of Doak's courses (Heathlands, Riverfront, Pacific Dunes) and two of them were on very ordinary properties.

I don't know if the were any environmental restrictions on Riverfront but it's the greens that make the course fun to play. The greens are very good. It's in a very weak golf architecture market so when originally built it was better than much of the local competition. If in the area it's worth a game but not a special trip. Since opening it's been overrun with residential development. Mike Vick's manse is behind #15.

Heathlands is just typical inland Myrtle Beach. I repeat my comment on Riverfront: If in the area it's worth a game but not a special trip.
Logged

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2006, 10:02:41 PM »
Quail Crossing- an inland site in So. Indiana with  mega power line towers running thru it , no really good natural hazards or compelling topography, and housing sites springing up around it but still a surprisingly enjoyable $39 dauly gfee course with intereting greens and hole designs( and also of Tom's personal favorite par 3s .
Logged
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tom Roewer

Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2006, 07:58:51 AM »
Ward:  I worked as a tournament official @ Quail Crossing several years ago and definitely remember the power lines.  It was a very interesting routing to me, and definitely had a strong set of par 3's. (#8 was a great hole - I hope that they have gotten enough air circulation and sunlight there.
Logged

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2006, 08:20:03 AM »


Was the difficulty of the Stone Eagle site a factor in the playability problems others have mentioned on this site?  
Logged

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2006, 09:11:16 AM »
About Stonewall,

I consider the long slopes of pennsylvania a really good type of sites...

I think the Old course there was build over mainly Tom Fazio's routing... it's not all Doak as far as the use of the site
Logged

Yancey_Beamer

Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2006, 07:57:07 PM »
Stone Eagle was created on a mountain of stone with a large amount of blasting and bulldozer work. I'm sure the amount of earth moved exceeds any other Doak course many times over.
The remarkable fact is that a brutal mass of stone that would be a major challenge to climb was transformed into an exciting golf course.
Logged

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2006, 08:14:16 PM »
For the few here who have played it, how would you characterize Tumble Creek as a property,(other than contrived ?)  ;) ;)

Redanman,

By a lot? Really?  I have played the Old 6-8 times and only toured the Udder, and it looks like fun but to say you like the Udder a lot more surprises me.
Logged

Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2006, 09:45:13 PM »
Here's a nice previous thread with some picture of Stonewall.

Enjoy

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=24529;start=0
Logged

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2006, 09:57:35 PM »
I have got to question considering Ballyneal an ideal property....I've been there and it's about as chopped up a piece of land as it gets....each hole would need a Paul Bunyun on a D7 just to smooth it out enough so you could start to build something that could be something ;).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 10:02:41 PM by paul cowley »
Logged
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2006, 03:22:21 AM »
Not to do the sacred cow thing, but it's cool to realize that the "ideal" properties for a few of Tom's courses - Ballyneal, Stone Eagle, etc. - didn't seem so "ideal" until Mr. Doak did a lot of work to make it look that way.

It must be a big compliment to an architect for us to say that a course is built on perfect land for golf, when in fact the land property was not nearly as good as we think.
Logged

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2006, 09:04:51 AM »
Quote from: Sean Leary on September 13, 2006, 08:14:16 PM
For the few here who have played it, how would you characterize Tumble Creek as a property,(other than contrived ?)  ;) ;)

You rang?

From a topographical perspective, the course opens with good movement where Doak really shines.  Holes 6 through 8 are pancake flat - we're talking Talking Stick flat - with good movement again on the initial ridgetop holes on the back nine.  The 14th tee shot carries down into a valley that God laser-leveled which is not exited until the second shot at the 18th.

The transitions in the routing add interest, but I think it's fair to call the site "less than ideal."

FWIW, of the six courses I've played in the greater Seattle area, Fircrest is the best site and Macan's routing takes full advantage of it.  

Mike
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 09:05:31 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Logged
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Patrick Schultheis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Doak courses on less than ideal properties
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2006, 01:45:51 PM »
I'm not really sure what "ideal" means, or how many courses in the world are on ideal properties.

I generally agree with Mike's characterization of Tumble Creek (though I think the 6th hole is somewhat downhill).  It's in an absolutely beautiful setting, with great views, etc (that's one reason I'm buying a lot there --- I expect to close tomorrow), but not sure it's "ideal."  Holes 15, 16 and 17 seem a little "stuck" in the valley a little bit.  18 finishes strong and uphill/sidehill.  Like Aldarra (ironically), there is a real uphill hike from the 18th green to the clubhouse.  However, I still think that Tumble Creek is a great walking course (but I realize that I have no credibility with Sean in that regard).

Patrick
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up