What about the wind?

[Dave Bourgeois]

In the thread on the Par 3 11th at the Creek Patrick explains in nice detail how nature, and specifically the wind, adds to the variety of the hole.  This got me thinking about how other architects have utilized nature as an element in their designs.

What holes best highlight the effect of the prevailing wind on the play of the hole (I like 12 at Augusta National).


How often do architects consider the effect of the prevailing wind direction when constructing a hole/routing a course, and which architects were particularly good at utilizing the most common weather conditions in their architecture?  

I realize that not every site has the same potential with regards to utilizing weather conditions but am interested in the process that architects use when designing a hole where nature can be an asset.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

I always thought that Shinnecock should be the poster boy for design with the winds in mind.

I'm sure that courses like Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails had the wind as an influential element when the courses were designed.

[JESII]

I have not seen the Bandon courses, and do not have enough experience overseas to discuss, but Shinnnecock would be hard to beat for this topic, as Patrick said.

Not sure how it relates to the compass, but from the prevailing direction the wind helps on virtually every long hole and hurts on virtually every short hole. Flynn designed each hole with that seemingly in mind because the long holes have greens generally open in front and receptive to shots coming in along the ground and the short holes generally have green complexes that work well when playing into the wind but become incredibly difficult when it switches to helping.

[Steve Kline]

"Not sure how it relates to the compass, but from the prevailing direction the wind helps on virtually every long hole and hurts on virtually every short hole."

Doesn't this make all the holes play about the same distance, especially the more the wind is blowing? I think that is a weak design feature if it is in fact the case at Shinny. Plus, there's no variety in that. What if the wind switched? Then all the long holes would be into the wind. There needs to be variety.

[Jim Franklin]

Fishers Island was designed to have most of the holes play with a cross wind so it was designed with the prevailing wind in mind (at least that is what my host told me). We caught a different wind there Saturday that actually let the course play a little easier.

[Aaron Katz]

"Not sure how it relates to the compass, but from the prevailing direction the wind helps on virtually every long hole and hurts on virtually every short hole."

Doesn't this make all the holes play about the same distance, especially the more the wind is blowing? I think that is a weak design feature if it is in fact the case at Shinny. Plus, there's no variety in that. What if the wind switched? Then all the long holes would be into the wind. There needs to be variety.

It might make the holes functionally play the same length, but going into the wind calls for a completely different shot set than heading downwind.  So, I don't think that a course whose "into" holes are short and whose "with" holes are long will necessarily suffer from lack of shot values and variety.  I've never thought Kapalua Plantation, for instance, suffers from lack of variety in its par 4s.

I think you are correct, however, that it is a waste of potential to have all the downwind par 4s remain long.  I always thought that a downwind driveable par 4 was an excellent challenge, since it tempts the player far more than an into or cross wind hole, particular since a mishit tee shot might leave a downwind pitch.  If the green complex is canted correctly and if hazards are deftly located, what a great hole it becomes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Not sure how it relates to the compass, but from the prevailing direction the wind helps on virtually every long hole and hurts on virtually every short hole."

Doesn't this make all the holes play about the same distance,

NO
especially the more the wind is blowing?

NO

I think that is a weak design feature if it is in fact the case at Shinny.

Then, you're the only person in the world that thinks so.

Plus, there's no variety in that.

There sure is.
Have you ever played Shinnecock ?

What if the wind switched?

It does.

Then all the long holes would be into the wind.

Not necessarily.
It depends upon which direction the wind switches to.

If it makes a 180, the wind is with you on the short holes and in your face on the long holes.  That's a difficult golf course.

But, the wind also blows from many other directions.

You have to understand the nature of prevailing winds, and the other winds that sweep the site.

There needs to be variety.

How do you know variety isn't there in abundance ?

On what factual basis do you make your claim that Shinnecock lacks variety ?

Aaron Katz,

Have you played Shinnecock ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

What holes best highlight the effect of the prevailing wind on the play of the hole (I like 12 at Augusta National).


How often do architects consider the effect of the prevailing wind direction when constructing a hole/routing a course, and which architects were particularly good at utilizing the most common weather conditions in their architecture?  

I think the challenge of Augusta 12 is the swirling winds, which are harder to estimate than a constant prevailing wind, and caused by the openings in the tall pines.

gca's have always considered wind, and it seems more and more detailed now.  Here is a summary of the highlights, as I generally recall them:

Routing Consideration - Muirfield in Scotland was supposedly laid out in triangulated form to assure wind was different on every hole.  

Features Consideration -  Most feature design on Scottish courses recognizes that the wind affects approach shots and leaves wide openings.

Later, when modern golf pros got involved, here are some concepts I have heard them espouse as good design -

Long holes into the wind, short with, to provide effective playing distance variety.

Design greens with the prevailing wind in mind to make shots "doable" - i.e. -

      downwind, lengthen green to account for reduced spin,
      into wind, they may be shallower.  
      Cross winds, -
            widen green
            angle with the prevailing wind to allow shot shaping

I try to follow those general ideas, with the caveat that I can trust prevailing winds about as much as a riverboat gambler.  If every green was designed to the same formula, whenever a different wind arose, the course could be unplayable. I tend to leave a little more wiggle room like the old guys in Scotland did on most greens than those pros would suggest is necessary.

Here in Texas, our summer and winter winds are 180 degrees different, and can be quite strong.  Thus, a green playing into the prevailing summer breeze, shallow depth with a fronting pond might play fine in summer, but be impossible to hold in winter.  In other places like Chicago, where the wind blows somewhere from the west most of the time (with about 10% off the lake winds in spring) its possible to align greens more to the formula.

Thus, depending on how constant the wind is, I follow the land more even when it contradicts the "formula" and figure if a third or so of the greens play better in off winds it makes the course that much better and creates different shot patterns, rather than always following the wind.  If wind isn't a huge factor on a site, I follow the land completely.

I would be surprised if Raynor consciously routed a course with wind in mind, being a non golfer. I bet the land just offered him those cross wind holes.

I would NOT be surprised if Tom Doak or other gca's come on here and completely debunk "Brauer's second wind theory" (my first involves White Castle hamburgers and is not relevant to this discussion.....) as completely worthless.

[Aaron Katz]

I have not played SH.  A friend was supposed to play with me there at one point in time, but it fell through.  I'm open to invitations though.  

[Dave Bourgeois]

Prevailing in my sentence about Augusta's 12th is certainly not the correct word as Jeff points out.  Swirling is definitely the accurate term.

Jeff,

Your opinion about Raynor not considering the wind in his designs is interesting.  I wonder if there are any detailed routing plans, or evidence on the ground that could support this one way or another.  Does the size of the green on the Creek's 11th have anything to do with the winds?  

With Raynor being an engineer, and probably quite an analytical guy to boot, I would be surprised if he did not consider wind.

[JESII]

Jeff,

Thanks for that post. Very informative.

One thing I'd note about Shinnecock is that on the short holes that I described as tough greens to hold when downwind, he generally has pretty open and mangeable areas behind the greens to attempt a recovery from. And as mentioned, the areas short of the long holes are frequently open so when into the wind if they are not reached at least you're not in a pond.

To more softly explain Pat's position here, Shinnecock offers plenty of variety regardless of the wind direction or velocity. The holes do not lay out parallel and side by side, rather they are spread over a fairly large area and ask for different approaches from the player. You could realistically have a few variations on a theme that make you think (on paper) that there is repitition out there but when faced with these situations on the course, monotony does not come to mind. You could realistically have a 7 iron into 12, 13 and 14 and be asked to do three completely different things with them and your reward or penalty will also be quite different. this type of thing happens all day long.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dave,

I really have no detailed knowledge of that course or Seth's design process regarding wind.  I wonder if the analytical bent of an engineer would carry over to golf. After all, he was most interested in fitting the 18 holes he knew on any site given him, and did a nice job of it.

To analyze whether he had any wind preferences, it would be interesting to see how often each of his template holes played with, against, or across the prevailing winds to see if there is a pattern.  Given his design motif, his would be easier to analyze than virtually any other gca. However, I suspect it would be random pattern, but that is just a guess.

George Bahto might know off hand if he reading, but did CB Mac have any thoughts related to wind (other than being a bit of a blowhard himself ) in his book that were feature specific, as the list of current pros wish list?  He may, but I just don't recall his thoughts off hand.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jes,

Two things are for sure - you can ignore Pat if you want to, and Shinney does have the triangulated routing which is a random, but effective way of making golfers deal with varying winds.

I am not that familiar with Shinney, having played it twice (yes, a shameless effort to deflect at least some of Pat's point by point questions that are sure to result) but hadn't thought about where the chipping areas and/or easier recovery areas should go regarding wind.  Those might be a more modern influence of the USGA course set up, again adding them to the players way of thinking.

It encourages aggressive play if recovery is reasonable, whereas really tough recovery just makes you aim for the middle of the green for your shot.  I generally put the easiest recovery areas away from the Sunday Pin in - ie front right for a back left Sunday pin, feeling it makes it more of a dilemma, but can see the advantages of putting it behind and left, especially on windy sites.  Nice subtle feature to figure into play, because its all about the misses.

George Thomas must have echoed Flynn in that he proposed the fair green, a relatively level open area behind greens (which I favor on long par 4's) for the same reason - a shot that goes for the green and bounds over is actually a better one than one that comes up short.  However, its usually punished by rough and a tricky downhill chip or flop shot recovery.

[JESII]

Good observations Jeff.

I thought about the modern influence of USGA set-ups, that's why I left my wording as an area instead of a formalized chipping area. Of course you are right though that the USGA does have aolt of these areas as short grass right now.

Other than 4-5-6, where else is the triangulation method used at Shinnecock?

Is there a formula tied into the triangulation method? I am not well versed, but 4-5-6 at SH are par's 4-5-4. The only other triangle I am conciously concious of is #'s 13-14-15 at Royal St Georges which is also par's 4-5-4. Is there any reason?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jes,

From memory, 14-15-16 and 10-12-13 (I'm not as strict in my definition and allow Flynn to slip in the short 11th) and while not arranged as a triangle, 16-17-18 point to different directions on the compass.