What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?

[JR Potts]

With all due respect to the members of Medinah and anyone else who thinks it's a great golf course, I think it's a great example of what a golf course shouldn't be...

Overly landscaped, tree-lined runways and flat greens is not my idea of a golf course.

I could care less about the scores as they related to par.  IMO, the course is dull.

And just becuase I am trying to filter the appropriate criticism, MargaretC, have you ever played the course?  Walked the course?

And does the C stand for Clayman?

[MargaretC]

Adam:

MargretC- It is as easy as 123, the number of posts you've made when penning those words. I don't know you, and have never met you, but I love the way you think about golf courses.  You must have played alot of golf in your life?


I've only been playing golf for 10 years, but I golf at every opportunity -- somewhat limited with 6 children, but we have a special push cart -- combo twin all-terain stroller that holds clubs AND diaper bag!  Outside of golf vacations, I average about 3 18-hole rounds a week.  Our 3-year-old twins (boy/girl) have joined my husband and I golfing since they were a month old and know to be quiet on the course.  Actually, all of our children are great golf companions -- Our oldest was 2-years-old when I started playing 4 months before the birth of his sister.  The 3 oldest (12,10 & 8 yrs) play and our 6-year-old is considering it, but for right now, just prefers to walk and watch -- occasionally hitching a ride on the stroller when it's Dad's turn to push the stroller/clubs!

PS:  So as not to offed our twins, the diaper bag is no longer in use, the bag we carry now holds treats instead of diapers!

[MargaretC]

Ryan:

Per your question: And just becuase I am trying to filter the appropriate criticism, MargaretC, have you ever played the course?  Walked the course?

And does the C stand for Clayman?

I've never played Medinah, etc.  I truly respect those with differing opinions, but I'm partial to links-style courses and courses like Medinah just do not appeal to me.

The "C" stands for Carroll -- no relation to "Clayman!"  

Regards,

Meg

[John Kirk]

Why do I get the distinct feeling that Ryan Potts is wishing you all into the cornfield?

LOL!

I've gotten over it.  And now that I'm not late night drunk posting, I have the senses to realize that I didn't design it, I didn't have any input as to the contouring and I love the golf course as is, so why should I get offended about what others think....each is entitled to their own opinions.

I think that's the right attitude about it, Ryan.  It's obviously a beautiful and challenging golf course.  As long as you love to play there, what others think about it doesn't really matter.  And remember that most of the criticsm is related to the course's suitability as a professional tournament venue.

With that said, I agree with the general consensus here.  Medinah now becomes the poster child in the argument for firm turf and sloped greens.  The best players are so good now, it's by far the best and most interesting way to defend par.  Putting was too easy last week.

I agree with Mike Cirba's impressions of #17.  I thought the old #17 was considerably more attractive and architecturally interesting.  And to rebuild the 17th green of a major championship course with a 19 inch elevation change is a blunder.

[Tim_Cronin]

Steve:
The PGA of A ordered the greens and other areas, including some areas of rough, watered on Wednesday night. On Thursday morning when the first groups teed off, the place was soaked, including the rough to the left of the first fairway. It was actually muddy in spots.
Why the order was given, I don't know. Kerry Haigh wasn't saying, and some PGA of A actually said it didn't happen. But it did. My wet shoes and whispers from well-sourced people say it did.
Friday's downpour (.90 inches) did for the weekend rounds what the decision did for the first two rounds.
The combination gave Medinah three straight majors with wet conditions. Plus, the Chicago area's now had five straight majors with next to no wind (89 PGA at Kemper Lakes and 03 US Open at OFCC included). Uncanny.

[JR Potts]

Tim:  The course was also watered on Monday and Tuesday.  I'm glad to hear that the PGA of A made the order.

It is not surprising as birdies, espcially by Tiger Woods, are good for TV.  And we all know, it is all about the TV.  I don't think anyone can argue that Medinah did not look absolutely beautiful on TV.  It was like the Emerald City.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

As we all know, the windy city monicker is for the politicians. I don't recall Chicago ever being terribly windy.

In Spirit of Medinah, you chronicled some of the maintenance issues relating to previous tourneys there. Care to share any thoughts as to why Medinah has trouble putting its best foot forward on the national stage?

Ryan,

I was there Tuesday, and the course wasn't all that wet.  The greens mostly appeared to hold well and mark up even then, though.

[JR Potts]

Tim,

As we all know, the windy city monicker is for the politicians. I don't recall Chicago ever being terribly windy.

In Spirit of Medinah, you chronicled some of the maintenance issues relating to previous tourneys there. Care to share any thoughts as to why Medinah has trouble putting its best foot forward on the national stage?

I WOULD LOVE TO READ A RESPONSE.

Ryan,

I was there Tuesday, and the course wasn't all that wet.  The greens mostly appeared to hold well and mark up even then, though.

I KNOW, THAT IS WHY I HAVE BEEN SO VOCAL IN MY ANGER AT THE SOFT CONDITIONS.  THAT BEING SAID, I WOULD LOVE IT TO BE THE PGA'S FAULT.

[Tim_Cronin]

Jeff:
I know the pols brought the nickname on -- many a national convention was held here from 1860 on -- but you'd think the law of averages would come into play. It's always windy when I play!

Ryan: I haven't figured that out fully yet, other than the USGA (cutting rough in 1990) and PGA of A (this time) and the weather (1975, 1990, 1999, 2006) haven't helped. Of course, if it's dry and windy, maybe Woods shoots 275 and wins by seven or eight, no matter what the par is.

Back to work!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv,

PGA always more player friendly set up - more like tour event and these guys are closer to them as a players organization.  Also, don't want to embarrass club pros in field.

Medinah greens have stressed in previous tourneys.  More water may equal more safety from Royal Liverpool look.

PGA doesn't want a Shinney or Olympic moment.  They may not have wanted a British Open tournament with everyone complaining about brown grass.

I guess I wonder if other than the trees there was something going on.  Hard to believe its agronomics, since more water would just foster more disease in the heat.  However, when I worked summers at Glencoe to put my self through college, one night I failed to water, "knowing" the rain was supposed to come. It didn't and the greens stressed.  The rule is if you need to water, water until it starts raining, and sometimes even in the rain - if you need 0.25" and stop in the rain, but it only rains 0.05" you can be just as screwed as if you don't water at all.

However, Medinah probably has a few more experienced guys out there plus a weather station that might have shut the water off had it started raining after irrigation started.  I agree it shouldn't have happened unless appearance was more important than challenging the top players to the PGA.  

And, it may very well have been. We are still a small subset of their audience. Most couldn't care, and may prefer 18 under winning scores.

[Joe Hancock]

The rule is if you need to water, water until it starts raining, and sometimes even in the rain - if you need 0.25" and stop in the rain, but it only rains 0.05" you can be just as screwed as if you don't water at all.

The problem with this rule is that not many know when water is really needed. Our current standards of maintenance have produced a lot courses covered with wuss-ass grass.

Joe

[JR Potts]

Jeff, you raise a good point about not wanting to take the cream of the club pro crop and making them look like fools out there shooting 165 or whatever.  I hadn't thought of that.  

Question for Ryan:  when Medinah agreed to go with the PGA, did they think of that?  I wonder whether the guys who made the decision at Medinah to hook up with the PGA thought of that angle?  I'll be honest: I probably wouldn't have.  I'd have thought that the PGA set up might include wider fairways and lighter rough that a US Open, and slightly softer greens, but I wouldn't have thought of the possibility that in order not to embarrass the real heart of what the PGA stands for, they might soften up the greens.

I too never thought of that.  Interesting.

I'm sure that those who made the decision to hook up with the PGA had only one thing on their minds.......The Ryder Cup.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jeff --

My wife saw absolutely nothing wrong with a course -- and conditions -- that allowed the winning score to reach -18 (though, to be fair, take Tiger out of the equation and you're talking about -14, which isn't out of sync with the Masters and British Open.)

My wife plays and watches a lot of golf, and is probably closer to the mindset you find here (thanks to my constant blathering about GCA-type issues) than she is to the mindset of most American golfers.

Looks to me like the PGA of America knows who they're marketing to.

[Walt Cutshall]

I thought Tiger's comments were interesting, when he said he (and many pros) like courses such as Medinah because the course is right there in front of you, unlike modern courses that are so tricked up.

The only complaint I saw from the players is that the course was a little too soft from the rain.

Hey, if someone can go 18 under by hitting 5w off the tee on a 474 yard par 4, then hit 3 iron to the middle of the green from 249, I just tip my hat. Design features aren't going to defeat that kind of talent.