[Jordan Wall]

So far this year the two majors with courses having the boldest greens have produced the most challenge.

So why does the USGA keep complaing about how courses are not tough enough?
Why do they think length is the problem?
Why do the want to flatten[/color] greens (ie: WF #1)


If anything I think the way to make courses tougher for the pros is to have more contoured greens and bolder green complexes.
That is the big reason Augusta played so tough. No?
Same for why WF was so tough. No?

My big question is, why are greenns for major championships being flattened, when the best thing to do would take these tournaments to courses with bolder greens to make them tougher?
Is this the problem in scoring?
Are greens too flat?
Are green complexes not bold enough?

I like what Pat Mucci said about NGLA a month or so ago.
It was along the lines of 'I love NGLA.  A mediocre shot is punished.  A shot on the green could easily end up in a bunker'...
Mediocre shots for pros should definitely be punished.
Why not?
They are the best in the world.
It seems like a miss leads to par and even sometimes birdie.  A miss for guys this good should be punished.
Mediocre shots need to be punished.

And, for me, the answer to that is bolder green complexes and more contoured greens.
Not length

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jordan,

At a club I regularly consult at, the super took me out and said that a particluar green needed to be flattened. I could barely see the break, it was far flatter than Medinah, for example.

The reason is that there is one area of the green,  where if the golfer is there, and the pin iis at one particular spot, the putt must be aimed "uncomfortably close" to the fringe to get close to the hole.  I also heard that you had to play just "too much break."

It may not be the USGA calling for this. I am continually amazed at how narrow the definition of a "fair shot" is to many country club and good players.

I may not consult there any more, as my initial opinion was it wasn't a justified change.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jordon, I think green speeds and the desire of club members to feel like better golfer push this trend if indeed it is a trend. I think we were slapped in the face by Medinah though this weekend. Pacific Dunes is still there. I still had 38 puts Saturday in the final round of our state senior. I was glad to make the cut but fast undulating greens will still test those of us who think they can handle the flat stick.

[Chris Perry]

I guess the simple answer is, nobody is going to be compelled to shell out $50/Dozen for ProV's and thousands on Titleist/Taylor/Callaway clubs unless these guys do extraordinary things to showcase them and shoot low scores in the process.

Didn't you know pro sports is all about marketing?

Why not ask why these guys play courses that are as flat as a pancake in general? I know the answer is "where would the crowds go", but it would be interesting to see them have to walk a course like Eaglemont 4 days in a row without whining about how exhausted they are, (caddies would get the worst of it) but they'd probably still tear it up scorewise.  

At least there they'd have to use some strategy off the tee besides bombing 14 drivers though.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Good Question, Jordan,

I am not sure at all. I don't get it. To me, fair is defined off the tee, the green complexes can be as challenging as possible as long as they are built to accept a properly hit 5-iron if that is what is being asked for. The putting challenge is cool.

[Donnie Beck]

Jordan,

Find some pictures of Friar's Heads greens... Nothing dull there at all... There is still some interesting stuff being built..

[Steve Curry]

not so dull...



Cheers,
Steve

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Find some pictures of Friar's Heads greens... Nothing dull there at all... There is still some interesting stuff being built..

I understand that.

Now, the USGA keeps lengthening and changing courses, as does the PGA, etc...
They do stupid things.
Flattening greens is one stupid thing, for instance.

Is the USGA missing something?
Whoever sets up these course for the PGA Tour is missing something.
I personally dont really care if pro's go low but I hate when I hear how much people hate it, how the USGA hates it, etc.
So they make these dumb changes to courses.

I know when I play some of these courses someday I want to play them as they were built.
When I play Winged Foot I want to see what real contours were built.
Not fake contours built for the PGA.

I have some pics of FH greens, and they are great
Why not play events on courses like that?
At least there would be some challenge around the green complexes...
REAL challenge!

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Rarely is it the actual USGA or PGA changing the golf course.

It's usually the club making the changes to lure the PGA and USGA.

And IF you play Winged Foot, you'll play very carefully restored greens that have been my poster child for green restoration. Those greens were quite challenging for the Open (even ran at a nice speed considering they're Poa).

[Jordan Wall]

They do it for the USGA.

This means the USGA, PGA have a big say in the changes.
They want the changes to happen.

Why are fast, flat greens better then quick, contoured greens?
Why are boring green complexes used in majors?
seems boring to me...

[Kyle Harris]

Well, neat green complexes were used in 3 out of the 4 majors this year and 3 out of the 4 last year. 4 out of 4 the year before that....

Jordan, can you spite a specific example where what you have said HAS BEEN the case?

[Jordan Wall]

What fun was Medina?

What fun was Hoylake?

I rarely saw a big breaking putt and everybody was making everything.
How often did players go into greenside bunkers with mediocre shots?
Now, how many shots went on the green from thick rough 180 yards out and stuck (or didnt roll off) at Medina?

Name one green complex that ate up all of the players.
There were none.
Was there really a way of defending par?
Length sure didnt work.
Wouldnt heavily contoured greens do the trick?  How about penalizing bunkers where mediocre shots enter the bunker?

[Kyle Harris]

Uhh Jordan, go watch the Open at Hoylake again. Look at the shots required to be hit into those greens and look at some of the putts and chip shots from around them.

[Voytek Wilczak]

What fun was Medina?

What fun was Hoylake?

I rarely saw a big breaking putt and everybody was making everything.
How often did players go into greenside bunkers with mediocre shots?
Now, how many shots went on the green from thick rough 180 yards out and stuck (or didnt roll off) at Medina?

Name one green complex that ate up all of the players.
There were none.
Was there really a way of defending par?
Length sure didnt work.
Wouldnt heavily contoured greens do the trick?  How about penalizing bunkers where mediocre shots enter the bunker?

Great topic, Jordan.

I concur - the greens at a Major venue should be firm, fast and contoured, so only very well struck shots would stay there. Penal greenside bunkers or brutal collection areas are fine with me, too...

But it's a fine line between the above and the greens being tricked-out/unfair.

Which modern architect builds the best green complexes in the spirit of Jordan's questions?

[Kyle Harris]

What fun was Medina?

What fun was Hoylake?

I rarely saw a big breaking putt and everybody was making everything.
How often did players go into greenside bunkers with mediocre shots?
Now, how many shots went on the green from thick rough 180 yards out and stuck (or didnt roll off) at Medina?

Name one green complex that ate up all of the players.
There were none.
Was there really a way of defending par?
Length sure didnt work.
Wouldnt heavily contoured greens do the trick?  How about penalizing bunkers where mediocre shots enter the bunker?

Great topic, Jordan.

I concur - the greens at a Major venue should be firm, fast and contoured, so only very well struck shots would stay there. Penal greenside bunkers or brutal collection areas are fine with me, too...

But it's a fine line between the above and the greens being tricked-out/unfair.

Which modern architect builds the best green complexes in the spirit of Jordan's questions?

Kelly Blake Moran
I've heard Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw

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