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Glenn Spencer

Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2006, 08:48:13 PM »
Did Tiger get to 25 under? I quit watching after the 5th. Even I, have more of a life, than watching  a movie for the 12th time.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 08:48:39 PM by Glenn Spencer »

James Cashmore

Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2006, 09:15:40 PM »
Hi guys

Having watched the tournament from the comfort of my Australian home, I couldn't help but smile at the way these guys are getting the ball to the green and going deep day after day.  I would much rather watch the shot making displayed at Medinah than the terror filled, hit and hope golf displayed at Winged Foot.  To me, it's more entertaining and provides a realistic 'shot' assessment for the average spectator.  It also allows those within the design industry to see the strengths and weaknesses of the course.

Some have talked about the weather making the greens soft, resulting in a 'target' play mentality; that's a factor, no doubt about it - but conversely, the fairways were also soft and required much longer shots into those greens for most players in the field.  Which is why the point made by Shivas is so valid - we're never going to beat these elite players with length (and hopefully never with ridiculous rough).  Well protected articulated greens with featured contours offer the best protection for tournament play, while providing conservative alternatives for the average member for the other 350 days of the year.

On another point, it really is great to be living in the 'Tiger' era.  While the last round was fairly well decided by the 5th, Tigers overall performance was the most solid display of golfing talent I've seen in a long while.  Truly sensational.  

J

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2006, 09:29:58 PM »
I can't comment on everything so I'll just make one - the soft greens had NOTHING to do with the weather.


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2006, 09:31:39 PM »
... Tigers overall performance was the most solid display of golfing talent I've seen in a long while.  Truly sensational.  
Perhaps since The Open Championship at Hoylake a few weeks ago ;)

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2006, 10:31:16 PM »
Shivas, you're old--you might know--I don't--I'm young  and East Coast :)
When did Rees redesign Medinah?  Did you play the old Medinah--did its greens have more character  than they do now?  

I can't believe what these guys did to this golf course.  I just can't believe it.  It's gotta be the technology, because I played this course with some pretty darn good players 20 years ago, and nobody could even sniff these kind of scores.  What did Micheel shoot? -13?  20 years ago, PLUS 13 could could win a tournament full of Shawn Micheel-types on this golf course.  

How do these guys hit these shots from the deep rough and still put it so close?  Tiger 7 iron - 195 yards + soft greens + ideal weather = Medinah didn't have chance.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2006, 10:39:27 PM »
Ken:

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.  


That logic seems almost like preparing an obese man for a diet by overfeeding him.

Kyle,
I had the best laugh I've had in a while when I read Ryan's post. I had almost the exact same thought as you.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2006, 10:43:31 PM »
Shiv,
Could you clarify what you meant, please?

Why is it a shock after softening the golf course, not the turf, the blindness and contours?

Honestly, there was no hostility in my opinioon of Chicago golf, in general. It was my hope that those who have yet experienced or recognized the difference, to seekout what the heck great golf is all about.

It wasn't a coincidence (or a shock) that the two high profile golf journalists, that opined pre-toon-a-mint, didn't go over the top when asked the question about Medinah. Their evaluations were right on, and, in hindsight, very sensitive.
 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2006, 10:50:52 PM »
I'm listening to Roger Warren talk on The Golf Channel and I'm just blown away by how he's defending the maintenance of the golf course.  He basically blamed the softness on humidity?  WRONG.  It was no more humid over the last week than it EVER IS in Chicago in August.  In fact, it was much less humid.  

Shiv,

My take was that it was hot all summer right up to the PGA week, when it unexpectedly cooled off.  They were watering more, and then the grass slowed down its evapotranspiration, leaving them a bit damp. They may have dried out if not for that inch of rain the other night.

Also, factor in the history - Medinah has had green problems in most of the tournaments I recall, probably owing to the trees. I can recall them turning purple and being syringed in 75 and 90.  I don't recall 99, but its possible they remembered that and overcorrected. Its still as much art and guess as it is science.

USGA greens are usually hardest the first few years, and gradually get softer.  I think Tiger was wrong, Soft greens are usually caused by either a top layer of organic that keeps roots from penetrating deeply or a sand with roundish particles that never sets/firms up very well.  If it was just excess moisture from rain or irrigation, a USGA green draining even on the slow end of 6-12" per hour would quickly drain those with proper sand.

I found myself wondering if they had a subair system, which could have sucked some excess moisture out if they drained slowly.  Of course, they said Rees only rebuilt 7 greens, I think.  Perhaps the rest are topsoil or other greens, and its even possible he built non-USGA greens to match the conditions of the ones not rebuilt, so they may have some drainage problems. I am guessing on that, but perhaps someone else knows?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2006, 11:02:35 PM »
Did a little web research and found that "the grass varieties on the greens of Course No. 3 at Medinah Country Club are a 50/50 blend of Penn A-1 and Penn A-4 bentgrasses."

A few questions:

Is this true?
How do these varieties respond to the heat and humidity regularly found in the Chicago area?
Are they prone to get puffy in wet heat?
With their vertical growth tendencies are the options for veritcutting and topdressing practices reduced due to recovery issues?
Those that have seen the rework come in, were the greens over pushed fertility wise that created a black layer?
Is anyone questioning whether A-1 and A-4 was a good choice?
Did the green conditioning / maintenance meld get locked in mid to late July due to weather and aesthetics?

Curious,

JT
Jim Thompson

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2006, 11:02:37 PM »
Almost every other Chicago course I've played this summer has been drier, harder and faster than what I saw at Medinah this week.

It looked like lawn-darts - or Jarts, to those 'in-the-know.'

 :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2006, 11:14:57 PM »
Did a little web research and found that "the grass varieties on the greens of Course No. 3 at Medinah Country Club are a 50/50 blend of Penn A-1 and Penn A-4 bentgrasses."

A few questions:

Is this true?
How do these varieties respond to the heat and humidity regularly found in the Chicago area?
Are they prone to get puffy in wet heat?
With their vertical growth tendencies are the options for veritcutting and topdressing practices reduced due to recovery issues?
Those that have seen the rework come in, were the greens over pushed fertility wise that created a black layer?
Is anyone questioning whether A-1 and A-4 was a good choice?
Did the green conditioning / maintenance meld get locked in mid to late July due to weather and aesthetics?

Curious,

JT

JT,

Don't forget who we're talking about here. They are one of the big boys. The get all of the USGA's attention. The get university help at the drop of a hat. They don't have excuses, grass varieties, weather...nothing. The can afford a linkpack or two of Primo to keep that puffiness and vertical growth at bay...just like I do with a budget that won't operate Medinah for one frickin' week.

The ONLY problem we saw this week was the response to a mandate...from the PGA? From CBS? From Medinah members?...to look "perfect" on TV. That requires water and fertilizer, evenly spread and in copious amounts. But I could be wrong...

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Medinah Member Remark
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2006, 11:16:13 PM »
Jim,
I once went to a super's local chapter meeting with Dave Wilber as a speaker. He gets around a lot and was kinda running through some of the common problems he helps supers deal with...he kept saying...they need to turn the water off.

I don't know the answers to all your questions, but I do know that at Medinah they didn't turn the water off.

But, it did look nice.