Maidstone & Willie Park - Question

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Maidstone on Thursday afternoon for the second time, the first being 15 years ago.

Talking with the assistant pro, he showed me a few photos from the original course which ran along the beach in back and to the left of the clubhouse.  It also used some property on what is now the short course.

My question is what did Willie Park do and is he responsible for the current routing?  The club states it was built in 1891 but Parks work was in 1925 which is also the year that he died, so I'm a little confused.

As for the course, holes 7-10 are all world and much better than I remembered.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Joel:

From what I understand the original course (which is probably not what you played) was built around 1891 by Willie Tucker. What you played was nine or so holes by Willie Park jr, and  nine more by someone else. There have been some hole redesigns since Park though!

I think the exact architectural attribution for the main course today is bit hazy at best!

You forgot to mention #14. possibly one of the most naturally beautiful holes in the world!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel & TEPaul,

Isn't Tucker credited with a good deal of work at Maidstone ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I believe so but probably not the course that you play. I think Tucker did the original course much of which no longer exists. But there is a history of Maidstone and the course and I have not read it.

[Ran Morrissett]

Joel,

My understanding is that Willie Park deserves credit for every tee and green from which you played. Originally, Willie Dunn laid out seven holes and golfers today may be playing on bits of his 2nd fairway and 3rd fairway when they play down the 16th hole of today (as you know, the 1890s course originally started near the tennis courts behind today's 3rd green).

Maidstone did not acquire the Gardiner Peninsula until 1922, a year after Seth Raynor submitted re-design plans to the club. Thus,  Park was the first man to have a crack at the 80 acres where holes 4-15 now reside.

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

I certainly looks to me as if the 2nd hole must be Raynor--at least the green is a very good Road hole green.

[Jeff Mingay]

Ran,

I think Tom Paul's right. It was Willie Tucker who laid out the original 9 holes at Maidstone... not Willie Dunn.

I was recently researching William Tucker's history because his golf course construction firm (with a satellite office in Portland, Oregon) built quite a few of Vernon Macan's designs in the Pacific Northwest.  

It seems to me Tucker was the original architect of Maidstone. And that very little, if any of his original work exists today.  

[Ran Morrissett]

Jeff, Willie Tucker's name is the one often associated with Maidstone but it was Dunn who came over from Shinnecock that laid out the first rudimentary seven holes. Tucker in turn improved upon Dunn's work the next year and created nine holes, at least that's my understanding.

Tom, Wouldn't you agree that it is no surprise that Willie Park, ever the good Scot and a man who liked angled greens, would build such a green complex as 2 at Maidstone?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ironically Dunn and Park were good buddies, both from Musselburgh. When Park first came over in 1895 he and Dunn played three exhibition matches at Shinnecock, Morrristown and Meadow Brook. Park one the first two and lost the third.

[TEPaul]

Ran:

I can't say who built #2 green at Maidstone, I can only tell you that from years of playing it it looks like a real MacD/Raynor "Road Hole" green to me (minus the smaller Road Hole bunker in front of course). I've had a real hard time over the years with what I thought were good shots into that green! It's just unusually deceptive in the way it's set up!

However, I do know the historian out there who likely knows far more about the particulars of the history and evolution of Maidstone than any of us do and I will gladly ask him some of these questions on here.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom, One reason I think it is Park over Raynor is the island in the back bunker - as far as I can recall, Raynor never once incoporated that feature.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran;

Interestingly, the grass "islands" in a few bunkers at Maidstone were put in by Jess Sweetser, who was working in some communication with Perry Maxwell from the late 30s thru the early 40s, according to what apparently are some sketchy club records.  They were a Maxwell favorite, as evidenced by Prairie Dunes.  

The book, "The Maidstone Links", (author not available at the moment as I'm at work) presents all of the known archictectural attribution of Maidstone to date.

The best way I'd describe the current course based on my understanding of the book is 80% Willie Park Jr. and John Park, who took early iterations of the various efforts there and refined, expanded, and consolidated them into what could fairly be called a "new course in 1924 , 10% refinements after him by Perry Maxwell, Dick Wilson, Alfred Tull, and Brian Silva, and 10% that would seem to very possibly be the remnants of Seth Raynor's 1921 work  (such as the 1st & 2nd greens) (the author presents a good case for that, although 100% proof is not available).  

[TEPaul]

And then of course there's the Maxwell 17th green. Bill Coore believes it and he can pick out Maxwell better than anyone I've ever seen. He also claims he was with one of the Maidstone historians who confirmed that. #17 is one of my favorite tricky, short, birdieable holes anywhere. In competition it almost becomes necessary to birdie it sometimes (it's routing placement is perfect) but there is the danger of the "other" if you get too aggressive!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I would certainly agree that the 17th green has all of the hallmarks of internal contouring that point to Maxwell.

However, the book doesn't make that conclusion.  Instead, it says two things that are interesting.  The 17th greensite is probably the "oldest" site on the property, used on holes going back to the very beginning.  It also speculates whether the current version of the hole is Raynor's, given that for all intents and purposes, it's another "Road" hole (like the 2nd), this time with a real road.

That doesn't preclude that the green itself wasn't modified by Maxwell, and it certainly seems to suggest his fingerprints, but although Maxwell put together several plans for the course (from basic restoring to suggesting major changes after the 1937 hurricane...the club opted for the former) and was evidently in consultation with the club into the 1940s, I don't believe that any real hard evidence about his responsibility for the 17th green exists.  

I'd love to hear if anyone has any further info on this.
    

[Chris_Clouser]

I was recently in contact with a relative of Maxwell's who traveled with him for a summer in the late 1930s.  He traveled back and forth with Maxwell while he was working in Winston-Salem on Old Town and to the Long Island area.  I was told by him that he knows that Maxwell did work at both Rockaway and Maidstone but he didn't have any details as he didn't really get involved with the golf course construction side of things.  He was more of a chauffeur for that summer.  He did say that Maxwell did more than just consultation at Maidstone as Dean Woods visited the site as well.  And Maxwell would not have brought in Woods for just consultation.

[Paul_Turner]

I thought it was interesting that Park chose to place the tee inland at the 14th, rather than building a par 3 along the shoreline.  

You could build another tee there, and play to the current green!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The club appears to have a very interesting history. Is 'The Maidstone Links' the most recent history?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Yes, I believe it is the most recent.  It is only a couple of years old, and it's very, very good, because it talks about the course and the changes it underwent in a great deal of depth.  

[Mike_Cirba]

The book in question, "The Maidstone Links", was written by Robert Goddard (working with the club) and copyrighted in 1997.  

It doesn't answer every architectural question, but the research seems thorough and insightful.  I highly recommend it for anyone interested in the evolution of this wonder golf course!

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

That must be David Goddard (not Robert). Just had a very interesting and lenghty conversation with him a few hours ago about architetural things out in the East End of LI!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

You're correct...David Goddard, it is.

Ahh..the ravages of middle age on the memory.