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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2002, 02:06:44 AM »
Phil the Author,

With respect to Jamie Duffner's comments, I would take issue with tampering with the greens.

While it sounds great on paper, you may change the playing and putting characteristics of those greens if you recontoured and rebuilt them, and that may cause unacceptable inconsistency yo those surfaces for either a major or daily play.

I did like the concept of extending the 2nd green around behind the bunker, but would have to look at the land again.
I believe there is significant fall off that would have to be filled, and that might affect the look of the left greenside bunker, which fits into the slope of that green pretty nicely.
Isn't the challenge of that hole the lie in the fairway, and the golfers ability to drive the ball around the dogleg, hugging the more dangerous left side ?  A side hill, uphill lie does present its challenges early in the round.

From a playability point of view, three of the par 3's all play at about 207.  While one is level, one downhill and the other uphill, I found that disturbing.  The idea of someone making
# 14 into a 200 yard par 3, I find disturbing as well.

I did like the falloff of the rear portion of the green at # 3, and perhaps that feature at # 14, coupled with a deep rear bunker would make that hole a little more demanding.  
While the offset trees are majestic at BPB, I might be tempted to clear the trees around the 14th hole in order bring the wind, more into play.

On # 10 I hit a good drive and was about 6-8 yards short of the fairway.  But, I played on a day after it had rained, with no roll.  The pros are 30-50+ yards longer than me so it seemed reachable under all but the worst conditions.  On the other hand, the comment that the bunkers were out of play seems accurate,  If the tee were moved up, I'd be curious to see if these guys would hit three wood off the tee to keep them out of play.

I don't think that the course needs much in the way of changes, perhaps a fairway bunker or two at # 1.

From the back tee, what is the carry over the fairway bunker at # 12, left, right and center ?  That may answer the question.  If the pros do carry it over the left side, they'll be in the rough.  I like the idea of widening the right side of the fairway, it also makes the next shot longer, if you take the safer route.

I still don't understand how # 18 can be lengthened.

Lastly, everybody is complaining about # 18, who designed it that way in the first place ?   What's so bad about it, as is ?

Holes # 13, 15 and 16 have no fairway bunkering off the tee, so perhaps extending the fairway bunkering back toward the tee might place errant irons in jeopardy, causing the players to have more to think about.

I like the hole, but these guys are good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2002, 04:27:54 AM »
The greens at Bethpage are not very inspiring but it seems to me that if the "open doctor" had suggested changing them we might have an outcry on this board about destroying "tillie-burbeck"

Maybe Pat is correct I know I would feel more comfortable if certain people suggested this work rather than others.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2002, 05:39:22 AM »
I'm glad this thread has finally gotten into the architectural issues involved and I'm enjoying reading those posts.

However, I have to comment on the non-architectural issues of this and the NGLA thread.

First, of COURSE there's bias on this site - it's supported by a bunch of opinionated arm chair architects that have done various amounts of research into the subject and have a passion for it.  Frankly, the bias is what creates the fun around here, IMO.

Second, human nature is to default to gossip, innuendo and rumor - it's more fun and the gratification is immediate.  Checking facts before speaking is both tedious and time consuming.  Also, if you do that, you might discover something that contradicts one of your most dearly held preconceived notions.

The Venturi thread was inappropriate because it dealt with personal integrity instead of professional competence.  On those kinds of issues, no eyewitness facts = no comment.

I say, "bring on the bias"!!  Make assumptions!!  State opinions and let them be challenged!!  Opine on courses one has never even seen (just make sure to say so) and let the brickbats fly!!

People that always know what they're talking about have no amusement value, whatsoever.

Maybe the solution is for everyone to start their posts, "if it happens to be true that................., then I think............."

Kind of cumbersome if you're already late for a meeting, though.

Finally, to Jeff Fortson:

I'm sincerely interested in your explaining why 1) something about Rees Jones in a cart at BPB is "ridiculous" and 2) why the USGA needs to respond to that.

I'm not challenging you - I'm interested in your opinion based on what you surmise was going on.  Whether any facts that could come out about RJ's presence there might render your comments moot isn't the point (to me, at least).

What is it that bothers you about that situation as you interpret it?





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2002, 12:51:41 PM »
Chipoat and all others curious about my personal opinions on Rees Jones architectural style,

I am officially silencing myself on Rees Jones topics after this.  Let's just say that I have not played one Rees Jones golf course that I like yet and feel that there are MUCH better candidates for restoring classic courses.  I want to like his courses, believe me.  With all the "Rees-tores" he's doing to classic courses for US Opens I would love to like the man's work.  What Rees did to BPB for the US Open in 2002 wasn't too bad but I just think there are many other architects that could do better than "not bad" or "OK", especially when it comes to classic courses.  

I'm sure Rees Jones is a nice person and tries his best to do the right thing but everytime a course gets a US Open the next thing you hear is how Rees Jones is going to do some updating or restoring.  Can't the USGA try other architects out?  Or better yet, can't the memberships of some of these clubs go against the grain for once and let an up and coming talent like a Doak, Hanse, Coore, etc. give it a try.  Maybe the guys I just mentioned wouldn't take these restoration jobs but I think you get my point.  

I guess it just makes me sick when I read that the USGA is going to come back to BPB and the nest thing I read is about how Rees Jones is going to get it championship ready.  

Anyway, I guess I am just opinioned due to my experience with Rees Jones designs.  I find little creativity, originality or strategy in the ones I have played.  That doesn't mean he can't design a great golf course.  Maybe his best designs are yet to come!

Oh well, sorry everyone can't stand the fact that I am not a Rees Jones fan.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »
#nowhitebelt

THuckaby2

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2002, 01:07:31 PM »
Jeff:  have you played Monterey Peninsula CC Dunes course?  Ran did a writeup and its on this site... Rees took a good course there and made it GREAT.  I've been lucky enough to play it many times, both pre and post renovation, and I feel very safe in saying this.

I also have nothing against Lake Merced G&CC, but then again I don't remember the course pre-"Reestoration."

This anti-Rees sentiment always fascinates me, given my experience.  Just curious if you have played MPCC....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2002, 01:25:37 PM »
Jeff Fortson:

I don't begrudge you your opinion on Rees Jones' work at all.  Also, I appreciate your clarification of what it was about the BP situation that annoyed you.

Why not start a thread titled "Why I don't like Rees Jones golf courses" (unless it's already been done) and use specific examples given how many you've played?  That sure sounds like a valid golf architecture topic to me.

Believe it or not, there are those who think neither  MacDonald nor Rayner were especially good architects because they copied certain kinds of holes - multiple times in many cases.  I don't happen to agree with that assessment for a couple of reasons but THAT would certainly be a thread that would get people going.

What's wrong with bias?  Since when is opinion bipartisan?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2002, 01:30:27 PM »
Jeff,

I think the club picks the architect, not the USGA.

Southern Hills picked someone other than Rees.

I don't think Coore & Crenshaw would get involved in a restoration.  I think they tried that once and the results to them, were less than satisfactory.

I've seen the work at Baltusrol, The Country Club, Bethpage and Congressional, and don't find it objectionable, but that's just my opinion.

The players also raved about Bethpage, as they did about Shinnecock, so I don't see the knock on those four courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2002, 01:49:30 PM »
Jeff:

You mentioned ...

"Anyway, I guess I am just biased due to my experience with Rees Jones designs.  I find little creativity, originality or strategy in the ones I have played."

You said you have not "played one Rees Jones course yet" that you liked. Which Rees Jones courses are you referring to? What do you think is missing from his work? Do you agree or disagree that his design effort has evolved with more recent layouts?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2002, 08:10:37 AM »
I have just got done editing many of my posts on Rees Jones to deamplify my heretical remarks.  I am trying to use a bit more of decorum in my statements here.


SO I, FROM HERE ON OUT, WILL JOIN THE REES JONES BANDWAGON!!!  

REES JONES FOR PRESIDENT!

HIP HIP HOORAY!


THIS IS THE LAST TRANSMISSION THAT WILL BE MADE UNDER MY REAL NAME.  FROM HERE ON OUT I WILL GO BY....

"FORTSONATOR"  

This is to let all of you know who I am but also be able to protect myself from incrimination in my business.  I hope you all understand.  Thank you.

Jeff F.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

FORTSONATOR

Re: Rees Jones spying the Black!
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2002, 08:14:26 AM »
Boy, that Jeff Fortson guy is a real nut-job!

FORTSONATOR
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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