What have you done for golf architecture lately?

[TEPaul]

Of course I'm not talking about architects and supers and those in the business or those whose activities and whereabouts, such as Klein, Fay, Shackelford and such are pretty obvious to most all of us.

I'm thinking about the rest of us who contribute opinions on here who aren't in the business.

Those of us not in the business who seem to be contributing well, even if just for their clubs are the like of Corey Miller (Sleepy Hollow), Steve Sayers (LuLu) and Paul Richards in the midwest, Dave Miller and Ed Baker (Charles River), Pat Mucci (Boca Rio). There are lots of them too numerous for me to even remember.

What have you done for golf architeture lately?

[Bryce Mueller]

I am a member at Hope Valley Country Club, and I got to take a look at Brian Silva's plans for our course's "reconstruction" a couple of years ago.

I suggested a couple of bunkers in areas where I always used to use mounding to hit drives a lot further from the back tees and take trouble out of play. I think that the bunkers have made a big difference, especially from the back tee boxes...

[T_MacWood]

In the last two weeks:

I argued that the work of Herbert Strong at Engineers would've been worth preserving and restoring.

Helped an author writing a biography on a famous old architect (with newly discovered info).

Spent several hours researching Ross, Egan, Watson, Whigham, Flynn, Stiles, Langford, Behr, Leeds and Bell...hopefully it will translate into something of interest.

[Tim Taylor]

I tried (mostly in vain) explaining to several members of my club why it is not a sin that our course has brown spots in the fairway. They didn't get it: "well, why don't we just water more?" These are the same clowns that bitch about dues...as if all that water is free.

Like, duh, we live in possibly the worst place for growing grass!



Tim

[Mike McGuire]

Thusday we put on the calender for this year the steps for restoring the right side of hole #1 on our Langford nine @ West Bend CC.

Fairway expansion to the original size, tree removal and sand back in the greenside bunker.

A small step but am important first step.

[TEPaul]

"In the last two weeks:
I argued that the work of Herbert Strong at Engineers would've been worth preserving and restoring."

That is the statement of a man who has no idea of the difference between the sidelines and the playing field.  

[Sean_Tully]

Well, I have been busy looking into the early history of golf in the Bay area. In doing so I have dug up some rather interesting info on SFGC and on Harding Park. One figure that stands out so far is what a little known Welshman had on golf in the Bay area when Robert Hunter hired Sam Whiting to come to America. He was all over the place and even did a co-design with Max Behr that as it stood next to Union League it looked the better of the two.

I like Tom, have recently assisted in the research of two books and am currently assisting some architects with courses in CA. Just last week I put Stanford in contact with a collection of aerials of their course from 1930 the same year it opened!! The aerials are all specific to the course and total of 20+ photos. Just today I located an aerial of a course reputed to be designed by John Duncan Dunn and George Thomas and a photo of a green on Harold Lloyd's estate designed by Mackenzie. In some colaboration with Gordon Ratcliff(Historian at Stanford) we have some literature on a golf course that was to be built by the AGCCC from a design done by Mackenzie and Hunter. He found a brochure on the course that shows a routing and I had found a topo map and a map that shows the area to be watered. We made our finds a couple weeks apart, funny stuff. I also found Herbert Fowlers plans and papers on his changes at Del Monte and Pebble. I have yet to see them, but will look forward to seeing them in the next week or two!

I am also trying to track down a collection of aerials from the 1920's. Some of them were found on a chicken farm of all places, I just hope they are the ones I am interested in. Also, I will have access to a collection of photos from the turn of the century that covers golf in NorCal area. I do not know how much it "covers", but from what I have seen it is good, real good.

Tom- would be interested on what you have found on Egan and Langford. I found a mention of Langford designing a course in Colorado Springs in 1918. I have more photos of Egan than anything else on him.

My big point in all of my research is to show people what their courses looked like and to try and get them back to their roots.

Tully

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
Been there and done that on the one in Colorado Springs.

Alan Long was some help on that one, as it looks as if Langford's Garden of The Gods never got built. That is unless Alan found something about it since then. (about 6 months ago)

Imagine a Langford & Moreau course in this kind of environment:

[TEPaul]

Sean Tully and TommyN:

Good stuff, really good.

Would you guys be interested in donating or working towards getting those finds donated to the USGA and their architecture archive so this stuff can be perhaps digitalized and made available to everyone over the Internet?

The over-all idea is to get this stuff into a central location (USGA) where it can be properly preserved and accessed by all over the Internet.

There's no question at all that good old photos and aerials are the very best raw research material on which restoration decisions can be based.

The only thing that could be considered better or of equal value, I guess, would be architects' original plans but they sure are rarer than photos and aerials.

Together they can tell as complete a story of an original course as can possibly be told today.

[Kyle Harris]

For the past several months, I made the sure the band pass on the greens mowers just nicked the edge of the collar.

Preserved the firm nature of fairways by lightly hand hosing the approaches and greens.

Spread the gospel re: selected tree removal and the opening of corridors for the purpose of play angles and firm conditions.

...oh wait, am I considered in the business?

[Greg Tallman]

Identified previously spoken for land that would greatly enhance each of our exisiting courses and presented conceptually how and why before inviting the professionals(Weiskopf, Nicklaus) in to have at it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

TEP,
I've been meaning to talk to you about something along those lines. I'll call today.

[wsmorrison]

I tried my damnest to educate Mike Malone about golf architecture but to no avail.  Sorry, Golf Architecture, I did my best.  Mike "Knucklehead" Malone is loose and considered dangerous to golf courses everywhere  

I am the author (or at least one of them) that Tom MacWood brought new information relating to Flynn and his family to our attention.  Thanks for reading the manuscript and supplying the information.

[Stu Grant]

What have you done for golf architeture lately?

I'm trying my best to convince current ownership of my home course (St. Marys G&CC in Ontario, Canada) to not make ridiculous changes to a great 75-year-old design.  Phase One of my efforts was a 1200 word essay in our local paper on the architectural merits of the 16th hole, a unique uphill par-3 which is scheduled for major redesign next year.  In my opinion this is the course's signature hole and it would be a tragedy if they moved the green to the bottom of the hill and made it just another mindless and forgettable 150 yard par-3.  One of the first people to congratulate me on this article was one of the golf course's major shareholders...he too feels that this redesign may be a mistake.  Phase Two of my plan is to provide to management a more indepth analysis of the holes that they are thinking of redesigning, to give them another opinion to consider.  I figure that I have another 50 years or so of playing golf here at our local club so I better try my best to talk some sense into current ownership...we need to protect the fine architectural aspects of the original design.

[Geoffrey Childs]

TEP

I've tried to keep my big mouth shut lately.  It's one of my greatest challenges.  

I've also argued that the work of Herbert Strong is currently playing beautifully at Engineers CC  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Wayne,
It was admirable of you in trying to educate Mike. It's almost as comparable to educating one of Jerry's Kids. (one of the worst of Jerry's Kids)

[wsmorrison]

Tom N,

What an exercise in frustration that was.  Mikey Malone is on his own now; isn't that a scary thought    Get ready for some more Maloneisms, even more outrageous than to date.  Something tells me he's only just begun.

[mike_beene]

Reminded a zealous member that we don't make changes to the course(such as uncovering creeks and building ponds) unless our architect says to do it.

[Sean_Tully]

TEP

Alot of the information that I am dealing with is already being preserved and is in special collections. If anything, what could be done with information such as this is to develop a database. I have already provided the USGA and the AAFLA with an index that I made of the "Fairway" magazine dealing with any mentions of the specific courses and photos. It took me a long time and when I went to UC-Berkeley to have it kept with the magazines they could not believe that I had done that.  I did it because too many people had looked at the magazines just for their course bypassing all of the other info. I have used the info to help other courses and hope to have an article in the NCGA's magazine when I can get around to writing one that will help to get the info into the right hands. It is really amazing how much info is out there if one really looks!

That is one of my beefs, too many historians research what is at their clubs and only go over whatever info they have always had. I know that I am an exception, but I have turned up some pretty amazing things that did not take me too long to find. I have a funny story of tracking down a relative of a very important photographer in the Bay area that started photographing golf courses in 1918 through to at least 1945. He took thousands of photos and there are very few that still exist. He basically captured the golden age in the Bay area and if his collection is ever found it would be a very substantial find. His name was A.D. Mills. Anyway when I finally tracked down a relative he was surprised that I was interested in his grandfather. We started talking about his family history and I actually knew it better than he did. He had some of the dates wrong, but I did not want to scare the guy! I am still hopeful that those pic's are out there somewhere and I will always be on the lookout for them.

Also, not all of us are lucky to have Far Hills or even the Old Ralph Miller Library on our doorstep. It would be something to have some satelite collections or interlibrary loaning between local associations. I know that the NCGA has a nice collection, albeit small, but it is a start.  It would allow people to do research on there given area and allow for easier access. I know that the devil is in the details, but I would take advantage of it.

Also, if there are any people with connections with SEGL reading this I would love to see some of the early Pacific Coast and Golfer magazines. . It took me a couple of months of late night viewing to get through all of the current online info and I feel like a junkie looking for another fix.

Tully

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Wayne,
I think Mikey has been stealing shots of Charlie Logan's punch. How else would one explain all of the delusion?

Tull,
I think you and I should start-up GCHA. (Golf Course History Anonymous) Just try to do this stuff one day at a time.

[T_MacWood]

Well, I have been busy looking into the early history of golf in the Bay area. In doing so I have dug up some rather interesting info on SFGC and on Harding Park. One figure that stands out so far is what a little known Welshman had on golf in the Bay area when Robert Hunter hired Sam Whiting to come to America. He was all over the place and even did a co-design with Max Behr that as it stood next to Union League it looked the better of the two.

I like Tom, have recently assisted in the research of two books and am currently assisting some architects with courses in CA. Just last week I put Stanford in contact with a collection of aerials of their course from 1930 the same year it opened!! The aerials are all specific to the course and total of 20+ photos. Just today I located an aerial of a course reputed to be designed by John Duncan Dunn and George Thomas and a photo of a green on Harold Lloyd's estate designed by Mackenzie. In some colaboration with Gordon Ratcliff(Historian at Stanford) we have some literature on a golf course that was to be built by the AGCCC from a design done by Mackenzie and Hunter. He found a brochure on the course that shows a routing and I had found a topo map and a map that shows the area to be watered. We made our finds a couple weeks apart, funny stuff. I also found Herbert Fowlers plans and papers on his changes at Del Monte and Pebble. I have yet to see them, but will look forward to seeing them in the next week or two!

I am also trying to track down a collection of aerials from the 1920's. Some of them were found on a chicken farm of all places, I just hope they are the ones I am interested in. Also, I will have access to a collection of photos from the turn of the century that covers golf in NorCal area. I do not know how much it "covers", but from what I have seen it is good, real good.

Tom- would be interested on what you have found on Egan and Langford. I found a mention of Langford designing a course in Colorado Springs in 1918. I have more photos of Egan than anything else on him.

My big point in all of my research is to show people what their courses looked like and to try and get them back to their roots.

Tully

Sean
It sounds like you've found a ton of interesting stuff. What is the AGCCC?

[Sean_Tully]

Sean
It sounds like you've found a ton of interesting stuff. What is the AGCCC?

That would be the American Golf Course Construction Company that did all the work for Mackenzie on his courses. Still working out some details on my research of their work as it obviously ties in with MAckenzie and Hunter in more ways than one. I have seen an advert for the CO. as late as 1935 which is interesting as I had figured they had disbanded after the work at Sharp Park.

Tully

[Adam_F_Collins]

Diddly.

[JSlonis]

Along with many devoted members and an extended list of experts in their particular fields, I'm helping in any way that I can, to assure that the Master Plan restoration at Tavistock CC will be a huge success.

I wish I could do more, but no one seems to want to compensate me $$$ for my ideas.  I will however, be happy to cut down any tree that needs it...free of charge.