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Pat Jones

Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2006, 10:51:11 AM »
Adam:

I'm not sure I follow the connection between modern maintenance practices and the flat market.  I think the flat market is largely due to:

1. The dramatic decline in corporate outings due to economic and social factors.  Look at the business plans for all those high-end daily fees built in the '90s and you'll find that they thought groups would represent two-thirds (or more) of their revenue.

2. Competition for time (the soccer dad phenomenon) and the perception that if dad's off playing golf, he's not a good parent.

3. High churn rate.  Many try the game and are daunted by its difficulty, embarrassed that they play badly or generally turned off by the holier-than-thou attitude they encounter in the pro shop.  We simply don't retain enough novice players.  

I can see how the "sameness" created by American-style maintenance (and some aspects of modern design) may be a factor in commoditization of courses, but I think it's down the list compared to price discounting, lack of effective marketing, etc.

Just my humble opinion...PJ


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 11:43:28 AM »
Pat,  

Well, I suppose the NGF has to own those numbers and the root cause for the exagerated exhuberence.

And,

I will gladly acknowledge many people find a soft canvas desirable. Why? Because it's predictable, Less taxing on their ability to score well on, and, it most resembles what has become known as the Augusta syndrome.

However, why should an entire industry appease those that are admittedly less sophisticated? They did, and now we have the flat market.

Using Joe Rigo's analysis of Fisher Island as an example, similar to this weeks Open, people wrongly jumped to the conclusion that because the grass was brown, it was dead.
I've never been to FI, or Royal Liverpool but I'd bet their turf is healthier, and their roots are deeper, than any over watered USA GC.

Golf teaches us many lessons through it's micro-cosim. When ignored the reults are less than satifactory. It's my contention that giving the consumer standard day in day out conditions, removed the intrisic variable of unpredictabilty. Which is key to hooking anyones soul.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2006, 07:33:39 PM »
Dan - can you still link to the actuall audio of Harvey's coments??

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2006, 09:23:13 PM »
Dan - can you still link to the actuall audio of Harvey's coments??

I don't believe so. But there is a "Contact Us" button at www.paulharvey.com. They ought to know for sure.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 12:34:23 AM »
We used to listen to Paul Harvey's radio show while eating lunch when I was working at Long Cove.

That was the summer Nicklaus shot 83 in the first round of the Open Championship, after one of his sons had an auto accident in Columbus the night before.

Paul Harvey reported Nicklaus' 83 and said:

"I always wanted to play golf like Jack Nicklaus.  Now, I do."

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2006, 09:30:20 AM »
Coincidences...

Yesterday I was speaking of Long Cove, but not Paul Harvey.
And, I was wandering what became of Pat Jones! (Pat...thank you for your service to the golf world by helping Mr. Harvey see the light!)

Mr. Harvey has a large estate on the 10th Green/11th Tee of the Arizona Biltmore Adobe Course, as Tommy N. says. He usually is here in Phoenix from January through early March. Last year he purchased an empty lot (one of six which have never been built upon) next to his estate and planted a large lawn. I had offered to help he and Angel with a putting green, but I presume it was felt it would not get much use. Besides, they visit the club a few times while they are in town, so their own, private green is likely overkill. I have not seen Mr. Harvey playing golf much lately...does anyone know whether he still plays?

By the way, Tommy N. kept trying to gain access to the Harvey's yard while we worked on the Adobe...it was all we could do to restrain him.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 09:31:35 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2006, 06:42:55 PM »
We were on vacation in England and Wales for two weeks. seeing gardens and playing a little golf, and I'm in my little hotel in Cornwall two weeks ago when I get a call from Paul Harvey's producer saying he wanted to talk with me. Quite the surprise, and he was very gracious. I assure you you we have nothing in common, except a concern for well-run golf clubs, apparently.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2006, 07:29:48 PM »
Coincidences...

Yesterday I was speaking of Long Cove, but not Paul Harvey.
And, I was wandering what became of Pat Jones! (Pat...thank you for your service to the golf world by helping Mr. Harvey see the light!)

Mr. Harvey has a large estate on the 10th Green/11th Tee of the Arizona Biltmore Adobe Course, as Tommy N. says. He usually is here in Phoenix from January through early March. Last year he purchased an empty lot (one of six which have never been built upon) next to his estate and planted a large lawn. I had offered to help he and Angel with a putting green, but I presume it was felt it would not get much use. Besides, they visit the club a few times while they are in town, so their own, private green is likely overkill. I have not seen Mr. Harvey playing golf much lately...does anyone know whether he still plays?

By the way, Tommy N. kept trying to gain access to the Harvey's yard while we worked on the Adobe...it was all we could do to restrain him.

Forrest,
Dang it! You just revealed how I broke the GCA access rule. I was uninvited! I guess I'm going to have to seriously consider deleting my account for the violation....

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2006, 07:35:45 PM »
Tommy, Didn't you tell me you were looking for the abandoned Bell Bunkers?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2006, 07:50:08 PM »
Found lots of them.

I've never really spoke much about the Adobe course, not nearly as much as I should have, but for a flat featureless property, I think Bell did an excellent job with the original course. It wasn't wall to wall green grass like it is today.

With that, I think what Forrest has done there to rejuvenate (remodel) it, by wanting to retain a certain bunker style and function similar to the Bell style, and given the budget constraints he was under, Forrest did a really good job.

I'm anxious to see if anyone has played there since the course has been finished, more specifically to see what people think of the newer holes and how they fit with the existing. I think Forrest choice of reversing 1 & 18 was brilliant. I wouldn't have thought of it. It created this beautiful back drop with Squaw Peak when finishing up on #18, which before when it was #1, it was behind you. the green is pretty interesting too and the contours work with the fairways. I'm also interested in how #16 & 17 play. Both are new holes, and with the removal of countless bushes and trees that cut off any view of the existing course as well as the beautiful Az Biltmore, it certainly had to make it a much better course then it was before.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Paul Harvey
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2006, 08:12:00 PM »
I assure you we have nothing in common

Wsshhh, that's a relief!   :)

You and Janie have fun in the Corn-lands....

JC  


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