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JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2002, 04:38:02 PM »
Doug
Well thanks for the kind welcome.  SInce you didn't really ask me anything about Nicklaus designs, I'll just briefly comment on the two that I have worked on, Castle Pines and Cabo del Sol.  The changes that have taken place at CP have all come under the guidance of JN.  We have added/eliminated bunkers, redesigned green complexes, added streams and ponds, etc.  I am also very fond of all our courses on the Baja Peninsula, Palmilla, Cabo del Sol, and Eldorado.  Thanks for your compliment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2002, 04:40:15 PM »
Kennedy
I am not familiar with Amenia.  Can you tell me where it is located.  I am not involved with all Nicklaus designs.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2002, 04:54:53 PM »
JWL,

Thanks for the reply. Just curious--who's responsible for originating the changes at Castle Pines GC? Is it Jack N, Jack Vickers or the PGA Tour? Also, what has your invoilvement been there?  I like some of the changes at CP, eg the extension of the back of the green on 15 around the pond. I don't like the new back tee on #8 because it takes some of the swashbuckling play away for all but the longer hitters, or to a lesser extent, the reshaping of the green on #8. I'm not sure about the pond on #14. So if you say those changes on #8 were your idea we could have an interesting discussion!  

I'm also curious if you can tell us what changes you are seeing in golf course architecture these days (in addition to than longer courses, of course) in general, and with your company's designs in particular?

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2002, 05:32:48 PM »
Doug
Primarily most of the changes have been inintiated by Mr. Vickers.  He talks with Jack and they either agree/disagree on a potential modification.  Mr. Vickers reasons for changes have be driven mostly by a desire to host a US Open.  He has consulted with USGA officiials over the years on what the course needed to be considered.  The equipment "improvements" over the last few years have had a dramatic impact on the course especially since the ball carries about 10-12% further at  its elevation.  For example, the 8th which you mentioned was being reached by some of the longer hitters in the tournament with 6-8 irons, thus his desire to find a back tee.  The 17th is frequently reached with 5-9 irons by most tour players.  Thus, he has built a tee on the other side of the pond, although it has not been used to date.
Mr. VIckers wanted to rebuild (lower) the 8th green and he pretty much knew what he wanted to do.  Jack wanted to rebuild the 4th green and he drew the plan.  My involvement thru the years has been to implement the changes the owner and designer wanted to make.  I think all, even the 8th green is an improvement  to the original, of the changes have been well received and appropriate.
The 14th pond/stream is awesome IMHO.  Again, the hole is over 623 yards long, and although downhill, was originally designed to possibly run a second shot on the green avoiding the left bunker.  Charles Howell recently in the tournament, flew a drive and 7 iron on the putting surface.  The pond was introduced to at least put a premium on second shots, since all players would just fire it at the green and pitch and putt.  The hole now with the pond/stream makes it one of the most attractive holes you will find anywhere, again JMHO.  There have been many other changes thru the years, but over the past 3 years CP has embarked on regrassing 3-4 greens a year to eliminate the poa annua encroachment.  We have taken this opportunity to modify if the owner/designer agree to do so.  Hope this answers most of you queries.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2002, 07:12:54 PM »
JWL,

Thanks for the reply. It's quite interesting to hear how the changes evolved, though my suspicion was that Jack V had a lot or all to do with it. Having said that, his chances of getting a US Open at Castle Pines are NIL IMO. I'll buy your view on comments re #14 and #8--these TOUR guys play a game with which I'm not familiar  :) . I really like the changes Jack N made to the 4th green. It's much better now.

Guess you didn't care to respond to my more general Qs, eh?

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2002, 01:32:19 PM »
;D First and foremost, this site is a genuine resource for those in search of a serious discourse on golf course design and for that, THANK YOU to everyone who contributes ;) As far as JN is concerned, I've only played a few, but found them all to be a serious challenge from the "Jack" tees, though somewhat repetitive... Meridian in Parker, CO is huge from the tips in the wind, with a few forced carries of 250+ and massive collection areas. Breckenridge, CO claims to be the only "Signature" Muni JN in the world. Either way, with the recent addition of a new 9 bringing the total to 27 holes, it's a great track with a solid routing and great greens (for the mountains, that is). Finally, I recently returned from my first sojourn to TX for a couple tournaments and had the pleasure of playing the Blue & Gold courses at Dallas Athletic Club... When I made the reference to the "Jack" tips, it was the Blue at DAC in mind, which made for a GREAT skins game and more than a few laughs from the short hitters. Great course, great greens and a great time had by all! Keep in mind your talking about 6 golf/ski bums from the mountains of CO in a 30 RV on a 7 day voyage into the land of long necks and smoke baloney for Breakfast ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2002, 01:48:34 PM »
Would it be fair to say that JN has, as an architect ONLY,
    a. done more to make golf expensive than any other person
        in memory?
    b. done more to make golf slow than any other person in
        memory?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2002, 02:14:19 PM »
I have played Ruby Hill CC in Pleasanton, Nicklaus' first course in Northern California (mid-1990's).

It is on beautiful piece of property, on a gentile hillside with many mature oaks and a natural creek that comes into play on 6 holes.  Since it is a privately owned development, large multi-million dollars homes front almost all the fairways but mostly do not come into play.

The high fade is not a necessity as there are more than generous landing areas and fairway bunkering that will impart a visual dogleg or need for a left to right or right to left tee shot.

The most prized feature of Ruby Hill are the greens - they are the best I have played ... smooth as smooth can be with a very true roll.

It also has a set of Nicklaus tees that can be stretched way back.  A good solid course.  The best JN course that I have ever played.

Anyone else in the NorCal contingent played Ruby Hill?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re: Nicklaus and Architecture
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2002, 02:25:32 PM »
Mike - strange but I've yet to play Ruby Hill... but the consensus seems to agree with you.

I have played Mayacama in Santa Rosa, which we've discussed here before and which is freakin' BRILLIANT.  That is one great golf course than even Nicklaus-hater Gib raved about... Look up previous threads re this if you are interested.  It debuted I believe at #63 modern on Golfweek's list, less than a year after opening....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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