Walking back to back tees - a bad idea?

[Jerry Kluger]

It has been my experience that many golf holes need to be viewed, if not played, from the back tees in order to see what type of shot is best suited to the hole.  Very often forward tees are lower or at a different angle where hazards cannot be seen or fairway contours cannot be recognized, etc., but the routing requires the player to walk back to get to the back tees.  Do most architects recognize this as a consideration in routing and try to have the player at least view the hole from the back tees on the way to the tees that he will be playing without having to walk backwards?

[Adam Clayman]

Jerry,
Formulas are dangerous protocols.
 I can think of a few instances where the "breaking of the rules" is indeed optimal, ased on the resulting hole.

I'd also argue with the premise that forward tees not allowing a complete visual is a bad thing.

[Jerry Kluger]

Adam: I am posing this as a question to architects as I wonder if this is something that they consider - they may not view it as a significant issue so as to be a factor in their routing.  I know that I usually do not play the very back tees yet I try to make an effort to see the hole from there as I can get a great deal of information from there.  

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Jerry,

While not an architect, I have taken to the practice of leaving a trail of breadcrumbs from the white tees as I begin the long march back to the newly constructed back tees...I do try to take in as much of the hole before the walk because by the time I get there, all that I can see is a tiny and tight chute that forces a shaped tee shot to a hole that I can no longer see.  I also enjoy saving the $ on a health club membership as retracing my steps adds to the walk...

I always hope that the birds are not hungry...

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Jerry,

In a perfect life this would be the ideal way of routing the course – walking off the green and meeting the next hole at the back tee.

Unfortunatly more often than not courses have had to increase length, hence JWK’s « bread crumb » trail (I didn’t quite follow that JWK – maybe you can explain ? As a health club man presumably you were laying brown bread crumbs not processed sponge white bread !!)

The « afterthought » Tees can be inferior since they sometimes create a blind shot or change the viewing angles to significant landmarks that the designer had considered in his « as built » Tees.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Jerry,

In a perfect life this would be the ideal way of routing the course – walking off the green and meeting the next hole at the back tee.

Unfortunatly more often than not courses have had to increase length, hence JWK’s « bread crumb » trail (I didn’t quite follow that JWK – maybe you can explain ? As a health club man presumably you were laying brown bread crumbs not processed sponge white bread !!)

The « afterthought » Tees can be inferior since they sometimes create a blind shot or change the viewing angles to significant landmarks that the designer had considered in his « as built » Tees.

Hansel & Gretel going into the woods leaving bread crumbs...

[John_Conley]

My peeves are when you are in a golf car and have to walk back to the back tees mulitple times per round or when the ballwashers are placed at a forward tee.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

JWK,
Of course – thanks for the explanation !! – I cut out reading teutonic « cautionary tales » to my offspring because as a child I was scared out of my wits – I preferred Winnie the Pooh - much less stress than a story about being locked up in cage with no food by an old hag.

[D_Malley]

one of the trends i have seen in recent years is making the back tees lower than the other tees (whistling straights).  The player from the back tee is not given as good of a view of the landing area as from the member tees.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

I often build holes where there is a walk back to the back tees, for the simple reason that most players are playing the middle tees and it makes the walk easier for them.  If everybody has to walk 7,600 yards PLUS the green-to-tee transitions to play the course, there are going to be fewer walkers.

Visibility is just as important from the middle tees if not more so, but sometimes, we'll choose a tee with less visibility to shorten the walk.  I mentioned making that choice about the sixth hole at Ballyneal in a thread the other day.

[Bill_McBride]

That is really a good response from Tom, as 80% of us should be playing from the middle tees anyway!  If you are playing the right tees, you don't have to make that trek back.

But I am looking forward to playing from that back tee at #4 Pacific Dunes next week even if it ISN'T the right tee for me, it's just so daunting playing from down there!

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Jerry:

I often build holes where there is a walk back to the back tees, for the simple reason that most players are playing the middle tees and it makes the walk easier for them.  If everybody has to walk 7,600 yards PLUS the green-to-tee transitions to play the course, there are going to be fewer walkers.

Visibility is just as important from the middle tees if not more so, but sometimes, we'll choose a tee with less visibility to shorten the walk.  I mentioned making that choice about the sixth hole at Ballyneal in a thread the other day.

Tom -

I used to ski quite a bit at Alta which has a lot of very tough terrain.  They used to place the tops of the lifts below the entry points to the tougher terrain, and not on top of the peaks to prevent skiers from having to negotiate extra difficult area.  

Of course, those of us who wanted to test themselves could hike to these better spots - similar to the 18th at PD.  You had to want it bad enough to go there.

I don't mind the extra walking.  I do mind the slap dash tee put in for vanity length on the scorecard with no attempt to integrate it into playability.

JWK

[Jerry Kluger]

My problem with those back tees is how often I've walked back there and said wow, I never would have seen that hazard or wow, what a great hole.  I think that the problem is that in order to judge a hole or appreciate a hole you often have to walk to those back tees.  I walk on a regular basis so the walking is not the issue.  I have always felt that most courses are designed from the back tees and you have to go back there to see what they're all about.

[Willie_Dow]

Many back tees can be viewed from other holes.  For example the new back tee in #5 can be looked at when leaving the second tee at Merion East.  Plan your walk, and enjoy the site of the new creations, but play in less than four hours.

[Mike Policano]

Jerry, the European Club south of Dublin has 20 holes.  Before playing I met the owner and architect, Pat Ruddy.  I asked him why there were 20 holes.  He replied that holes 8a and 12a were par 3's that one played on the way to the back tees for those holes.

Interestingly Tiger Woods holds the 18 and 20 records there.

[wsmorrison]

Weren't classic era courses that were built with elasticity designed so that the original back tees (often now the middle tees) were proximate to the preceding greens?  The elasticity designed in allowed tees to be moved back over time as needed thus resulting in walks to the back tee as they get implemented.  What's wrong with that?  That was the evolutionary process designed in and the only method available.  Perspective and understanding make this entirely acceptable.  Are the designs awkward from the original back tees?  In most cases, I wouldn't think so.

Courses by architects that didn't bother to design in elasticity probably have some awkward moments with new back tee construction that was not foreseen.

It is just a guess, but current architects probably don't need to design in so much elasticity going forward because we must be close to the extent of technological impact and maybe the impact of athleticism as well.

[Willie_Dow]

Back tees are designed for tournament play, primarily.  It seems to me that this gives some room for speed of play, by walking back to back tees.  It also gives room for "keeping up with the group ahead of you", which allows officials to keep the pace moving along.

[tonyt]

Jerry,

It has been touched on by other posts above, but this is a huge peeve of mine.

On a 7000-7500 yard course, it is often sheer stupidity to force the 6200 yard player to still travel the 7500 yard course. And the main reason why forward tees don't solve the problem of long courses being more physically draining and far longer in time to play for all.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tony: Often when you played an RTJ course with his runway tees you really understood how much longer it was to play from the tips.  Plus, with the runway tees you often saw more of the hole from the forward tees.

[Anthony Butler]

Jerry,

In a perfect life this would be the ideal way of routing the course – walking off the green and meeting the next hole at the back tee.

Unfortunatly more often than not courses have had to increase length, hence JWK’s « bread crumb » trail.

Pinehurst #2 is a really fine example of a course with minimal distance between the back tees and the preceding green. The 'new' tees for the open had the effect of not only added length tee to green, but also green to tee...

Other Ross and Mackenzie courses also demonstrate how closely the green and the tee can be placed.

[Doug Siebert]

All I know is that I find a lot fewer divots and broken tees on the back teebox on courses where you have to walk back to them (and even fewer on courses where you have to walk back and uphill to them)  It is actually kind of annoying on par 3s since I don't carry any broken tees with me and it is sometimes hard to get those long tees into the ground far enough without using the sole of your club as a hammer!

I think having players have to drive by the back tees to get to more forward tees just encourages people who shouldn't play the tips to do so, something about driving "up" to their tees must make them feel like they are going up to the women's tees.  But if they drive up next to the middle set from the green, usually they'll just play from there.

I don't think architects should make it any easier for lazy people to play the tips, they are the guys you see driving in circles in the rough looking for their ball while you stand on the tee and wait.  Granted they'll do the same thing when they play from the middle tees, but at least they are 50 yards closer to the green when they give up looking and drop a ball on the edge of the fairway, reducing their chances of losing another ball on their approach.

I think architects should concentrate more on how things look and play for the majority of players instead for the few percent who will be playing from the back tees.  I really liked Old Head in that respect, the middle set was given the best spot on the cliffside on a number of holes, rather than giving the back tees all the prime spots like for example Turnberry.

[Scott Witter]

Jerry:

To some degree I think it would be beneficial to the golfer who normally plays the middle tees to see the course from the back, for it can be a real eye opener for the average player to see what these guys face from "way back here".  Sometimes the average player will say hey, "what in the world are these bunkers for or this roll for because it never affects my game" until they DO come to the tips and begin to see the whole picture.  However, and as a practical thought, since they don't have the skills to truly enjoy the game from the back and since the features and hazards have been designed with sufficient flexibility for golfers at all tee positions, I don't know what real value is gained.  Other than curiousity and visual appeal, which are not forgotten, they are just included somewhere else where they will make a more significant impression on them where it counts.

With that in mind though, just this week I conducted a walking tour of a private course where I am doing a Master Plan so a small focus group could speak to me more one on one and ask me questions to gain a sense of my approach and thoughts about improvements, etc.  Each time we stopped at a different tee complex, I walked to the back tee and group followed.  From there I began my discussion of the hole.  After doing this on about 7 holes, one of the members asked me why I always walked to the back tees?  I told them I felt this was a good place for all golfers to view their course and to have a more complete picture of what I take into consideration while studying their course.  You see, so many golfers and especially private members get all wound up in their home course and how they see it from their perspective, their game, forgeting that there is much more golf out there they never see, but that I must consider when making suggestions for improvements.  I am always amazed at the comments I hear when I do this and the group usually tell me after the tour that they have gained more of an appreciation for their course just because they have really SEEN it from the back tees.

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