[Hunt]

Heading up to MI this weekend. Anybody play this Engh course?

Worth it?

[Matt_Ward]

Hunt:

A good Engh layout in a number of respects -- terrain especially. However, you would find a better situation with other layouts he has done with the likes of Lakota Canyon and Pradera, both in Colorado, to name just two.

Be interested in your comments on the 18th hole if you do indeed play it. One other down note -- the routing is a bit confused as you l play the downhill par-4 11th and then have to do a 360 degree turn to get to the tee at the 12th.

Like I said -- a good Engh course but you need to venture west to find his better works to date.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I only saw this course during construction, but the 18th hole was all shaped in, and I thought it was just awful.

The hole is an optional-route par 5.  You may have enjoyed the straight-on route to the hole, but not many golfers could handle that.  It looked like the rest of the world would have to play way down to the right, for a way uphill third shot over bunkers to the green.  But the worst part was that if Huck's dad didn't get all the way down there in two, his third shot was stymied by trees, and then he'd have to play a wedge to the corner to face the uphill approach for his FOURTH shot.

Check that -- that was the second worst part of the hole.  I almost forgot the cart path which was located right between the two landing areas for the tee shot, so that an off-line tee shot to either fairway might hit the cart path and go flying into the trees.

Did I see that right?  How'd YOU like the hole??  

[cary lichtenstein]

I knocked it on the green in 2, took me a couple of cart trips up and down to figure out what tree to hit it over.  Good risk reward hole, gotta hit the drive in the right slot.

Bette made a routine 5.

The only problem I saw with the hole is you have to wait for the green to clear if you want to go for it in 2, and the guys on the the tee can't see you, so you risk getting hit.

Perhaps a bell in the middle of the fairway as an all clear signal  would be a good idea.

[Jim Franklin]

I knocked it on in two as well, but agree with most assessments that it was not one of his best holes. I did not worry about any other golfers as I did not see any. Tom, I believe Matt said it was a "down note" so I do not believe he liked the hole. Jim has done better optional route par 5s in the past.

Matt is right in saying you need to go west to see some of Jim's better designs, but True North is certainly worth the look.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom, et al:

The 18th at True North simply doesn't work for me -- especially when you consider what Jim E has done in similar situations with par-5 closers (see the ending holes at Lakota and Pradera in Colorado as two first rate efforts).

The fairway situation -- top and botton does provide plenty of confusion and I dare say is a tad over-the-top for the average player. The cart path alignement is also ill-conceived.

For those searching for Engh quality layouts you'd best stay west because True North doesn't have the sheer details and qualities he often provides.

[Scott Witter]

I designed the site complex for the clubhouse and consulted on other matters aside from Jim Engh and the course, however, I did see the course under construction on 4 occasions and have played it 3 other times, once during the founding members outing.

I would agree with Engh's other western work as being stronger and without a doubt I have never understood what he was thinking on the 18th.  Tom Doak has a good description of it and the weak points are accurate (oh crap, wait a minute, here I go criticizing another architects work!) sorry Ian,  Cary, perhaps you and your wife are better players and you seem to have no trouble getting home in two.  That is a pretty good feat as the landing area straight away is very tight and a soild carry to reach it safely.  Even then, you must be in the right spot otherwise you'll be blocked out by more trees when I thought you were supposed to be rewarded with a clear shot to get home in 2.

The safe route, while generally open and full of the Engh rolls and containment to the center with drainage straight down the middle, is quite long and I have watched many members and guests struggle to reach the corner in two only to face that tough uphill wedge to a platform green which is the surface is blind.

Overall, the course does have many good shots out there, but I always left the site wondering about Engh approach to routing.  I saw the site a few time before construction began and thought it was very strong, (quite densely wooded, but very interesting movement and dramatic in some locations to offer grand holes).

I will never forget on one visit I was watching Jim Engh layout grassing lines while I watched a dozer cutting in this strange bench right down the middle of the hole directly in sight from the tee...I thought, Nooooo, that can't be the cart path could it?  No way, he wouldn't put it there would he?  Well, I didn't see anyone bounce it off the path and into the trees as Tom mentions, but I did watch a playing partner bounce it off the path twice and down, I mean deep, into the fairway at about 350 yds! so I guess it can't be all bad, he was happy.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

The problem with True North is we are all spoiled by Engh's other work. If one would play it first, then it would be very worth recommending.

It's like Strantz's Tobacco Road, play Tot Hill first and then TR and you get to enjoy both, the otherway around, you're dissappointed.

I do agree with you, I think Engh's best 4 are west of Michigan, for me, Sanctuary, Black Rock, Lakota and Redlands Mesa in no particular order.

Cary

[Doug Ralston]

There IS at least one more Engh course in Michigan, that I know of, though have not played. I have heard good things about Tullymore. Anything to it?

Doug

PS: Just looked it up in a listing of Top Publics in Michigan; which rated Tullymore #7 and True North #34. I am sure other opinions are different.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Fair enough point.

However, the bar for Engh is that high now because of previous successes. True North is a good layout but there's far more to choose from in No Michigan that's better.

Cary -- don't agree with your listing of best Engh designs --

I would not have Sanctuary or Redlands Mesa on my first page -- both are good but a good bit less than the following which are stellar.

*Pradera
*Lakota Canyon Ranch

[Tom_Doak]

Doug:

I have heard very good things about Tullymore, too, but I've never seen it myself.

[Jonathan McCord]

I have never played True North, nor seen it.

However, Tullymore, which is part of St. Ives Resort is certainly worth seeing.  There are great Par 3's, and a number of great par 5's.  I wish I had some pictures but it has been a while since I've been out there.  There are only 8 par 4's on the course which is rather unique.

The course is always in great shape and the service is second to none.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

What the heck does the "service" have to do with the architectural qualities of that course or any other for that matter?

Just a quick question -- no offense meant -- did the beer cups have the logo of the course on them too?

[Andy Troeger]

From reading through the rest of the thread it sounds like Engh's 18th at Tullymore bests that at True North. Its a wonderful short par five that requires a tee shot that challenges the water to the left to set up another shot over the water to reach the green in two. If you prefer to play it as a three shot hole, the fairway is ample and you can play down it pretty easily to set up a short third. The thing I like about the hole, and the course in general, is that he presents choices about whether to take risks or not, then requires you to pull off quality shots if you decide to take the risks. Both times I've played there I've made a few birdies and a couple of doubles, but its really a lot of fun either way. Very highly recommended!

[Tom_Doak]

After hearing the description of Tullymore's finisher, I've got a question:  does Jim Engh ALWAYS end with a risk/reward, multiple-route par 5 on every one of his courses?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

I recently played Blackstone, Engh's new private course in Arizona. The current 18th is a straightforward par 5 birdie opportunity. The 9th, however, is not and is one his better 5pars, equal to to the 18th at Pradera. I think the nines were flipped for some reason which escapes me now.

Steve

[Ari Techner]

I have never played True North but I played Tullymore quite a few times back when I lived in Michigan.  I thought it was a great course, its been a few years but I dont remember any bad holes I remember alot of interesting par 5s ad a couple really good long par 3s.  I did really like the 18th hole, great hole that makes you think a little bit and not just fire away.  9 is an interesting uphill short par 4 with a big hill blocking the view of the green on any drive not hit to the far right of the fwy.  I remember thinking the course looked very deliberatly shaped.  MUCH better than its sister course St. Ives which is a terrible Matthews course with about 1 good hole.  

[Chris_Blakely]

Matt:

What courses IYO are "far better" than True North in Northern Michigan?  When you say Northern Michigan, do you mean courses that span from the Lake Michigan (Arcadia Bluffs) to Lake Huron (Lakewood Shores) or are we talking Traverse city Gaylord area???

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

For what it is worth, take a look at this:

http://www.michigangolfmagazine.com/features/Top50.html

Nice listing, opinions on quality will always vary.

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Good question -- I am referring to the layouts that are just north and south of the points from the Upper and Lower Peninsula.

True North is a fine layout but I would not be basing a trip to the area around playing it.

So yes, I would be including the area you outlined in your post.

Tom D:

No, not all Engh courses end with a risk and reward par-5. Black Rock in Idaho is just one example that comes quickly to mind. Ditto Santuary in Sedalia, CO.

[Andy Troeger]

In taking a look through that top fifty Michigan list...where's Black Forest? I haven't made it to that part of the state much, but that was one that jumped out at me.  One the plus side, it was nice to see Pilgrim's Run make the top ten.

The relative rankings of Tullymore and True North seem to be reflected in the comments here.

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