[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, And they are still there. (Upper left holes) But from the description I was reading last night, it would have seemed as if they were part of another neighboring course and I didn't take the images to add them to layout.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

Upper left or lower left?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm looking to the northeast in the top B&W aerial, parallel to the RR track, between the RR and clumps of trees. Those holes at the bottom look like an after thought to me.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike, the upper left where there looks to be a few holes. Not the two in the lower left. Please tell me that is what you guys are looking at, or am I losing it?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW, TommyN, MikeC:

I'd have to go back with the card and recreate the original routing progression before the parkway came in. I had it a year or so ago but I can't remember off the top of my head now.

When a road like that cuts through a course any number of thngs result--pieces of holes are used for other holes, possibly even a new hole or two needs to be created to get back into a reasonable balance and variety and overall reasonbility.

Tom MacW, I think what you think is an RR track is the Tacony Parkway. I believe most of the damage and chopping up of the course came on the right side of the aerial near or at where the Tacony Xs and going on down to the bottom of the aerial. The holes that are on the right side of the Tacony are original holes but are used now in pieces. For instance (#3 I think) is now a shortish par 3 on the left of the parkway which originally was the first half of a par 4 that came from the hill from the right of this present par 3 green and ended up as a par 4 at the green on the other side of the parkway in the lower part of the aerial.

And there are other alterations that took some of those holes (to the right of the parkway) and made pieces of them in on way or another. Above and around the X I believe there originally was something but I'd have to go back and look at the drawing in the grillroom.

I do believe that the original course was constructed as per the grillroom drawing and as so often happens with courses that lose land things started to devolve into other iterations of routing and hole changes!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

If I get a chance tonight, I will try to complete an overlay of the new aerial and the old one.

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom MacWood,

Those holes in the distance are the neighboring Ashbourne Country Club.

I've never seen the original drawing of the course, but I can pretty much say by looking at the photos that course was not what either would have entirely imagined.  Notice the track that still exists in the middle.  That was to be left alone as the owners thought they would have more racing on the facilities.  It was eliminated with the work by Robinson in 1968 as the Tookany was expanded and the two non-descript holes were eliminated and they routed two new holes through that open area and renovated some of the other holes to squeeze the routing in.  I believe the club actually handled most of the work done with the original Tookany project, but Maxwell may have helped out, as he maintained an office in Elkins Park until after his work at Saucon Valley in 1944.  I am wondering why they wouldn't have used that wooded area closer to the Tookany X that was mentioned earlier.  I doubt the plans for that would have been in place at the time of the original construction of the course.  Also, in my research I found some writings by Charles Evans (a friend of Maxwell's) that quotes a letter from Mackenzie to Maxwell on the work he did at Melrose, which leads me to believe the design was much more Maxwell than Mac's.  Which would also tie in with the belief that Mac just consulted towards the end of the project.

Tom Paul,  

I am working on developing a timeline of Maxwell's work in the Philadelphia area that runs from possibly as early as 1923 to 1944.  He seemed to do quite a bit of work in the area as he visited it once a year because of his interest in the arts and seemed to always have work there or in the New York area until the point where he had his leg amputated.  But I do know he was in Princeton, New Jersey because he got married at the temple on the Princeton campus in 1946 to his second wife, so he may have continued working in the area after his amputation, but it is not documented anywhere.

[Chris_Clouser]

Here is the text from the letter I mention in the above post as it appeared in the Chronicles of Oklahoma after Maxwell's death.

My dear Maxwell:
      When I originally asked you to come into partnership with me, I did so because I thought your work more closely harmonized with nature than any other American Golf Course Architect.  The design and construction of the Melrose Golf Course has confirmed my previous impression.
      I feel that I cannot leave America without expressing my admiration for the excellence of your work and the extremely low cost compared with the results obtained.  As I stated to you verbally, the work is so good that you may not get the credit you deserve.
      Few if any golfers will realize that Melrose has been constructed by the hand of man and not by nature.  This is the greatest tribute that can be paid to the work of a Golf Course Architect.
      
                        Yours very sincerely,
                        Alister Mackenzie

[TEPaul]

Chris:

Do you have a date on the lower aerial on page 1--the one that shows the race track?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Chris
I'm not referring to Ashbourne. From Mike's description the original design utilized the land to the NE. It looks to me that there may have been some holes in that direction, between the clumps of trees and the RR track. Probably not after looking again, because that would've necessitated crossing what looks to be a busy road.

If I'm not mistaken your '38 photo shows the Parkway was already built. Might the original design have utilized the creek more heavily; the highway forcing the club to abandon those holes?

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom Paul,

Both of the photos were taken in August of 1938 according to the Hagley Museum.

Tom MacWood,

Unfortunately, I don't have any info that indicates any holes were ever in the area you're talking about.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys;

I have some ideas and I'll get back to you all later today as time permits....one of those busy work days.    

This is indeed a TON of fun....sort of like an archeological dig without the religious overtones.  

Or, perhaps WITH the religious overtones!!  

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

The holes you notice to the right of the parkway were not abandoned--they use them now but the ones nearest the parkway have been chopped up some since one hole (probably original #4 or so) came from a high tee near the clubhouse and played to the green next to the parkway at the bottom of the aeria (on the other side of the parkway now). It did that originally since there was no parkway there then. Today a short par 3 sits in the area below that high tee and after playing that short par 3 the golfer proceeds (under or over--can't remember now) the parkway and plays the remainder of that hole as a very short par 4 now. The remainder of the holes on the other side of the parkway (not the clubhouse side) are pretty good--the ones that weren't chopped up. There's a lot of slope and topography to those holes on the far right and then the routing winds back down near the parkway and creek and the golfer crosses back over the parkway to the clubhouse side again!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I was looking at the panoramic aerial to the land north of the area you described. There appears to be what might be a green guarded by bunkers, where the parkway and RR are nearest, beyond the other major road. But I doubt the course ever went that far north however.

I have seen an old photo of a hole with a green just beyond the creek. I don't see anything like it in any of these aerials. I suspect the course was altered some time between 1927 and 1938. What year was the parkway constructed?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ashbourne CC is directly north of the course in Tommy's first aerial, and that area does not appear in any of the older overheads from the Hagley collection, so none of the holes one can see on them are Ashbourne's.  

The area in the southwest quadrant, with the holes that are seemingly out of character, is now housing.  

The area in the northeast quadrant, where a number of holes on the M/M course printed layout ran (including one with a creek directly in front of the green), is now a wooded area, with some baseball fields a bit further along.  

I'll try to get a slightly wider view of the modern course up here tomorrow at work, so you can see what I mean.

The parkway was a WPA project during the Depression, which seems consistent with the timeframe that the original course was altered.  There is speculation that since Maxwell had an office in Elkins Park, that he was the one who re-routed the course after the land was lost.  It seems to be pure speculation, however.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike, If you think this is fun, you should come and spend relentless hours with me trying to find features and doing tons of research on San Pedro Golf & CC and Lake Norconian!

I'm telling you that I have Daniel Wexler and Geoff to blame for all of this addicting stuff!

[Mike_Cirba]

I should really know how to do this better, but clicking on the following link will show a modern version of what the are to the northeast of the 1938 area looks like.  

I know that the M/M drawing planned to have the course run up into this area (where the woods and baseball fields are), but looking at the overheads of 1938 and present, I really wonder if they were ever built.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?mapdata=%252bDurgsgaQPvg2bwbjz1Scm8i6doAkOsMAFYaWFo9FQ2iKK76j0cQPgHRt2iaBlzpvGPnYk2yJto83qfIHhOShlKCV0kTsdsuaIm4I2lAIEqdl5W
pN30AEZszIP%252fUU0r185HIZQfzYjrjOVFas0MXE%252bOFIspGpOJ1jl2FLMIBTyQ4kfVnMFie1PJ
KTDbOTPHhfR9wUrtOvknQ5RUZEFYPwj34yz9taRAAftExZ9wprjx1l1HzFnpgDpttVDJrew9hByE8OM7
Jk8cjayFdac3rMMnHt1aoLgP8uBM0gtcyhG7IQtywQ%252fsH8TljRIirAV1bU8fkNFIMDsvHMnfSe2g
pfdQXojE2GlIVwG7tZQ9ZbpdTR27eBB%252fN5RzHGO8w3zr8S1z%252fhc6BdWM%253d&click=cent
er&map.x=376&map.y=68

Let me try this;

[TEPaul]

I'm getting a little lost with all these descriptions about where the original course was routed.

I know how the course plays today but I'm forgetting a bit about the middle of the back nine! Where is the 12th hole and is it a bit of a commute from the 11th green? I do remember how the holes go to the left (or west) of the old driveway coming in from the top of the aerial.

As for the woods to the northeast (just to the west of the parkway and the left of the 2nd tee) it's pretty steep in there falling down to the parkway and the creek on the other side in my recollection.

I can't really remember the original routing plan on the wall of the grillroom now--I'd have to go back and look at it.

And where is this baseball field?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Ok, to refresh your memory.  I'm sure you know the first two holes...then the 3rd is a par three on the clubhouse side of the road (going towards where the "out of character" holes exist on the old aerial).  Then, you cross under a tunnel to play the 4th, which is that adapted hole with the creek crossing to a perched green.  The 5th and 6th come back along the top of the hill in the other direction, the par three 7th doubles back, and the 8th runs parallel to the parkway going back in the other direction.  Then, you cross "over" the street (dangerously I might add) to play the par three 9th to the "old" 18th greensite under the clubhouse.

The back nine is all on the clubhouse side of the road.  

Actually, where the original course drawing crossed where the road now exists was in two places.  The first was that the present #18 used to be number 12.  From a tee behind the present 18th green (where number 3 exists now, sort of), one drove across the parkway and played to the current 4th green, in what must have been a pretty dramatic par four.

Then, if you can recall the 12th hole....which is located at the very top of the old aerial along the property line.  Well, that hole used to be a par three (not sure what hole number) to a green that no longer exists (although the fairway is humpbacked at about 175 yards).  Just beyond that humpback was a tee that would have crossed where the road now exists to a hole where the creek cut in front of the green.  There were also a couple of other holes over there, which is now where the X between the parkway and other roadway interesect.  

18 was a par five that started on that side of the road, and made two turns as it worked it's way back to the present 9th green.  

Hope that helps a bit.  

My only question is that if the course was ever built to the original plans, I'd expect to see more evidence of it in the 1938 aerial.  Instead, much of the course already looks as it does today, with the exception of the "out of character" holes, which were replaced at some time by holes up where the driving range is in the old aerial.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Mike
I don't know the answer to your question, but I have seen an old photo of a hole that matches your description, with the green set just behind the diagonally crossing creek. I would think the construction of the parkway had to be devistating to everything nearby; even the creek has an odd look to it in the 1938 photos. The panoramic aerial is more informative than the high altitiude aerial, which has some very long shadows.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

For those who have seen the original plan, do you know who drew it? MacKenzie had a pretty distinctive drawing style and as did Maxwell, as seen in Maxwell's sketch for the U or Michigan GC in Doak's book.

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