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David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« on: October 29, 2002, 06:22:58 PM »
Those of you who, earlier in the year, marvelled at the architectural "brilliance" of the new Hidden Valley golf course might be interested to know that I received in the mail a plan for the redesign of the golf course.  

I wont go into many details but it looks like most bunkers are being recut "sandbelt shape", two greens are being moved, five other fairways signnificantly realigned, and the course stretched from 6100 metres to 6500 metres.

Some changes look good (removal of blind water hazard in middle of fairway on 14), others look terrible (eg the replacement of a terribly placed waste bunker on the second hole with an Oakmont inspired bunker of the same shape called "Parry's Pews"!  I'll go into more detail if anyone cares.

I just find it hard to believe that a course needs to redesign to such a large extent less than a year after openning.  But if any course needed to, this was it.

By the way, I am thinking of going there for a game. (because I think I can still get on for free and I am poor after returning from overseas.) If anyone wants to come along and see some examples of bad architecture that have to be seen to be believed, let me know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2002, 07:24:11 PM »
David, thanks for the update. Sounds like they are trying to give it some desperately needed credibility by having Parry more involved, however he probably hasn't got much to work with. I beleive they still have a lot of houding to sell up there.

Was the orginal design done by Pacific Coast Design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2002, 07:28:21 PM »
I think the story is that the developer wanted to build the course for an unrealistically low amount of money, which of course didn't work, hence all the redesign work and extra money.  In spite of the earlier scathing post from Mr Duffy, it does seem to be a hit with the punters though.  I know several guys in their early 20s or younger that have joined, no doubt seduced by the carts and country club attitude.  As long as the fairways and greens are in good condition, they couldn't give a stuff (or even know) if the design is no good.

The Ocean course at the National is in a much more desperate need of redesign (or demolition) the Hidden Valley though.  They were modifying greens on that course almost immediately on opening.

How was the trip to Edinburgh?  A critical success?  And did you manage to fit in any golf?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2002, 07:32:14 PM »
Shane
It was Pacific Coast Design.  You should at least be thankful that these guys didn't get the gig at Commonwealth.  They would make Hartley look good.  They are also working at Patterson River, where the managed to build a tee right behind a gum tree which couldn't be removed.  Presumably it wasn't on their map.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2002, 08:33:33 PM »
>:(David if I were you, I wouldn't waste any time travelling to and playing "Hideous Valley".

This would have to be the worst example of course design that I have come across in 40+ years of playing golf.

If the trip is for educative purposes then go ahead and see what an absolutely shambolic layout Hidden Valley offers your average punter.

This is not golf country, and never will be. I truly pity Craig Parry having his name tied to this monstrosity, as it would appear he is setting out on a design career, and he may regret having the nomenclature of Hidden Valley attached to his name for future reference.

The last thing this dreadful place needs is increased metreage. It was long enough when I was there back in May, with gluggy fairways, bare patches, hidden water hazards everywhere, bunkers as hard as Pilbara marble, replete with pristine examples of 21st century housing lining the some of the fairways, with more on the drawing boards.

If your intention David is to see how a course should NOT be done, then you will have the opportunity of inspecting the very best example in that unsavoury category.

As for the young guys buying memberships there, well that does not surprise me. On the day that I was invited there, we were only one of two groups walking the course. The rest appeared to be young blokes careering around the course in carts drinking copious amounts of beer.

Yeah, a really great course - and membership!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2002, 09:14:55 PM »
Craig Parry was earlier tied up with AUSTRALASIAN GOLF MANAGMENT from WA. They were under investigation by the authorities for some scam involving sale of memberships to a non existant course called Cobbler's Creek in SA.  

They touted themselves on the golf shows throughout Asia as "The Worlds greatest Golf Course Architects" - they had balls I will give them that.

Shows Parry's handlers don't do due diligence before signing him to dubious deals.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2002, 09:24:06 PM »

Mike,

Yes, I already played the course a few months back.  And I had a good time there.  I am sure it had as much to do with the weather, the company and the fact it was free, as the design of the course.

I found the course to be in good nick and the design a mixture of good, indifferent and really really bad.

The green sites on the front nine were very flat and unimaginative. Nothing really offensive but nothing good to say about them either.  

The really offensive stuff for me was the hidden water hazard on 14, where a ball kicked into it from the middle of the fairway, the fairway bunkering on the 10th tee shot and the 2nd hole second shot where on both occasions the average player had a 20 metre wide strip of fairway to aim for between two 100 metre long bunkers but the good players could just hit over the bunkers.  

Stuff that I thought was good:  After the tee shot, I thought that the tenth hole was really good, especially with the pin on the right side of the green.  For a 300m bunkerless Par 4, I thought the 11th was good.  (Possibly swayed by the fact that I hit my tee shot to 20 feet.) The twelfth green was ok, good undulations and a bunker with some depth.  The 13th hole was quite pretty, as it wa designed to be, and moderatly interesting.  The 15th tee shot had some interesting options, about a 230 metre carry to cut the corner off the lake and leave an iron into the green. And as much as I dont like the cliched island green, the 18th was an interesting way to finish a match that was all square.

The aesthetics of the courser were absolutely terrible.  The waste bunkers just looked terribly out of place.  Although you say that it is not golf country, I think that a course like Axedale (another 80 km up the road on similar ground)  does a far better job of blending in with the surroundings.  If you look at some of the properties around hidden valley, there are beautiful gum trees that fit in well with the valleys and eroded creek beds etc.  Why they decided that every hole need to be lined with fir trees is totally beyond me.  They look bad now but in a few years they are going to look absolutely terrible.  And I hate to think what the cost of planting these semi mature trees was.  

As for the redesign, it certainly does look better, bringing into play some obvious features like the erosion gully that was 20 metres to the right of the 5th fairway, eliminating alot of the problems with the current design but creating some new ones as well. eg I cant see anyone not taking an iron off the tee on the 501m Par 5 15th.

But the main problem is that it adds another two styles to the course.  You have 5 diffenrt styles of bunkers on the one course.  Hideous.  And like you, I cant understand the added length.  What has happenned between 2001 and 2002 that makes you want to add 450 metres to a course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2002, 10:02:41 PM »
:(David,

I think your penultimate paragraph encapsulates everything negative that I have penned about that place. One is forced to used an iron on a par 5 off the tee!!

In fact on that hole, I teed off before my host told me of the consequeces and he said  something to the effect: "That's in the h2o". In fact it was on the isthmus, if I can call it that, between the two water hazards. I paced it out - 14 steps between hazards.

After I read your post I thought where I would play if I was forced to live in that area. It wouldn't be "Hideous Valley", maybe Kilmore, which I played in an Open about 25 years back. I seem to recall it as a passable track.

I've never heard of Axedale. Is that worthy of a detour if one is in the area?

Brett:
Didn't know about the WA/SA scam.  As you point out, if you have crook handlers, you usually end up with crook deals - or should that be deals with crooks?

Australasian Golf Management - hmmmmm? An offshoot of IMG perhaps?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2002, 10:58:54 PM »
AGM  is/was nothing to do with IMG, although the name is fairly close to the new IMG/TWP joint venture.

Don't know who Parry's handlers are but I don't think they are IMG.

The name of the guy that runs/ran AGM escapes me for the moment....but their brochure was so spectacularly bad that I kept a brochure around for a while. They were promoting themselves as "The World's greatest golf course architects" and the only photo they had of a golf course was an excavator being run by an Indonesian!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2002, 11:03:27 PM »
Justin,

Thats not fair to criticise the work being done by Pacific Coast Design!  Whatever you think of the work, nothing will take away the comments by a pennant captain after Pennant was played there this year

"This course will easily be among the top 5 courses in Victoria within the next 12 months"

Six months have passed since that comment: I wonder if they're still on target for that incredible feat!
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2002, 11:23:35 PM »
David
Don't do it to yourself.
If you are poor give me a call and we can go play somewhere decent -free.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2002, 01:32:32 AM »
Mike D,

Axedale and Heathcote are two courses that I would recommend if in the area although they are probably a little out of range for a day trip from melbourne. Heathcote is about 45 km short of Bendigo and Axedale about half way in between Heathcote and bendigo.

Axedale is a nice little fun track.  It has 7 Par 3s, 3 really good gambling short 4s and 3 good par 5s.  The third hole, A straight away 250m downhill Par 4 with a creek fronting the green is a highlight.  The 15th is hard to explain but I have never seen a green site like it. All in all, a good fun course, great surroundings, and definetly worth trying once.

Heathcote comes in at around 6000m and is probably one of the best conditioned country courses.  Low traffic means the greens are always true.  It is an interesting mixture of really good holes and really average holes.  The rumour I heard was that the greens are all replicas of greens at Kingston Heath.  Haven't been to Kingston Heath in ten years so I cant confirm but it seems unlikely considering the contours at Kingston Heath relating to the bunkering.  Maybe they are replicas in shape?  THe 18th/11th double green at Heathcote does look a bit like the 7th/16 at the Heath.  Someone might know.

Justin Ryan has played these courses a fair bit. Any comments?

By the way, not a big fan of Kilmore.  They have those small inverted saucer greens which I find a bit quirky.  And what was really odd was that they had redesigned a few holes with massive (35m) flat greens and grass walled bunkers.  Unless they were in the middle of redoing every hole like that, it is always going to look very disjointed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2002, 02:33:42 AM »
Chris
I remember playing in an event with the President of PR before the started work, and he told me they were aiming for a Metro type course and quality.  They are obviously happy with the work that has occurred (and clueless as well, from what I've heard).

David
You are correct in your assessment of Axedale as a good, fun track.  The 15h hole is certainly one they would never build now, a sharp 400 dogleg left with a second shot straight downhill, often from 200 metres+ to a green in front of a creek.  It is certainly quirky.  The greens were all done by Kevin Hartley when they converted from scrapes about 6 years ago, and thus are relatively uninteresting.  Heathcote is also a very good bush track, the greens are always excellent and the hospitality good.  I can't say I've ever really noticed any resemblance to the greens at KH though, except in pace.  If in the area they are really the only two worth bothering with.  Kilmore is OK, with the new greens you mentioned also being done by Hartley, and Broadford is a pretty good track when it has grass.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2002, 05:35:38 AM »
Justin,

Would it be fair to say you are the closest GCA gets to an expect on central Victorian golf courses?  Are there any worth making the drive up to play and if so why.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Hidden Valley -Melbourne Aus.
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2002, 02:52:25 PM »
Brian
You generally wouldn't play any of these courses unless you happened to be in the area.  Heathcote and Axedale are the best in the area, are cheap, well maintained and fun, but they couldn't be described as architectural masterpieces.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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