[rjsimper]

If when designing a new facility, including a social clubhouse, how would you prioritize the following and why:

1. Returning Nines
2. First tee in close proximity/view to the clubhouse
3. Clubhouse overlooks the 18th green

To me, I'd say it depends on the type of course you are building.

For a CCFAD, I'd say that returning nines might be at the top to boost F and B revenues w/o having to build and staff a halfway house, followed by a close first tee to ensure prompt and legal play, with the 18th bringing up the rear.

For a country club, I'd probably reverse the order exactly - 18th overlooked by the clubhouse is an important element in a CC setting, followed by a convenient first tee with returning nines as a distant third for which I see little great advantage other than the ability to play a quick nine in the evenings...though many courses have good loops of any number of holes that can substitute nicely for a scorecard-nine holes.

Any thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Just be sure the opening holes and closing ones are not effected by the sunrise or sunset.

That's a big no-no in my book.

There's a few others but I'll kick it off with the one I just mentioned.

[Yannick Pilon]

Ryan,

IMHO, all those three items are important.  Whether its private, public, resort...  to have those three can be a big bonus.

Unless you have a site that sets itself up in a way where you need to sacrifice one or the other to get the best routing, I would make all the necessary efforts to get all three items in there....  Plus the one that Matt mentionned.  That's one major item that needs to be adressed as well, amongst others...

Yannick

[rjsimper]

Absolutely - there are probably hundreds of decisions that go into creating a successful facility - the reason I zeroed in on these three in particular is because they seem to be the most space/land dependant of all of the major issues at hand, and they are decisions that MUST be dealt with -

If land is at a premium, a course can simply decide not to have a driving range, or not to have a chipping area, and so forth.

But, everyone has a first tee, everyone has a final green, and if you're an 18 hole course, everyone has to deal with the issue of returning the nines or not...and at what cost.

The sun issue is a good one to consider also - though I would guess that most would place that at the top of the list and it's a decision that is probably the same regardless of the type of facility being designed...whereas the three I listed I wonder if the answer would be different.

Anyone ever see a bladed wedge shatter a clubhouse window on the final hole?  Palos Verdes Country Club, my home course growing up, had the pro shop immediately behind the 9th green, which was usually a full sand or gap wedge from a downhill lie - I lived my high school years in fear of one day catching one skinny and rifling it into head pro's office.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

If your #1 priority is to build one of the great golf courses in the world, then all three of those have to take a back seat.

Insisting upon returning nines eliminates 75% of your routing options.  (What did Dr. MacKenzie say about it in THE SPIRIT OF ST. ANDREWS?)  Just think of all the great courses which don't return at the ninth ... Pebble, Cypress, Pacific Dunes, Pine Valley, Merion ... and most of the links in Scotland and Ireland.

Now, if you're just in it to make money ... well, hire somebody else.

[Ryan Farrow]

I personally like when 18 green comes up as close as possible to the clubhouse; so that would be  #1 on your short list. As Tom said, trying to achieve all of these things can really limit your options when routing the golf course. But when a course can elegantly pull this off it makes the experience around the clubhouse really enjoyable.

For example: Oakmont which not only has 18 close to the clubhouse but 9 green is only a few paces from the bottom of the steps and provides quite a view from inside.

[Yannick Pilon]

Tom,

Aren't you simplifying a bit too much?

Most architects don't have the luxury of choosing the sites they work on, or the clients they work with. But hey, that's part of being successful, right?

I agree with you on the principle, but most of the time, you have to factor in all of those issues if you want a successful project that your client and the golfers will appreciate.  The golfers, for the good course that you will design for them, and the clients, for the course that you will also design for them, but that will allow the flexibility and the economic sense that they need to survive in (most of the time) busy markets....

But I may be wrong....  Only experience will tell, right?

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

I agree that it's a great thing when you can get the 18th hole to come right up to the foot of the clubhouse.  The 18th at Royal Lytham & St. Annes is tops in this regard, and our 18th on the original 18 at Stonewall is probably my favorite closing hole from our own list because of that feature.

BUT, I still think having that feature is secondary to having the largest possible number of first-class holes.  One of the clients at Stonewall told us originally he'd love to see the ninth and eighteenth end in a double green next to the water, AND he wanted to knock down one of the old stone barns to maximize the view from the dining room to the green.  I practically had to chain myself to that building, which was the centerpiece of the clubhouse complex and which helps to make Stonewall a unique place, in order to get my point across.

[Troy Alderson]

Ryan,

I will agree with you for the regular average golf course trying to make it by on a plain site.  But, I will side with TD on using the site to its fullest potential to bring out the best holes and routing.  If a site was set in place by God to hold a golf course, then let the land determine the layout and the golfers will flock.  It appears most sites around population centers will not naturally hold a golf course and the architect must design the golf course into the land, those are your big money makers.  Other sites naturally distined for golf may not be big money makers but may have the potential to make the top lists and break even at the bank.

Instead of returning 9s, how about returning 6s (or 3s on a 9 holer).  Walla Walla is building a 9 hole course for the turf program with 3 sets of 3 holes, each returning to the clubhouse.  Great idea for suburban courses.

[rjsimper]

This is getting confusing with all these "Ryan..." replies, given the presence of two of us

Sure, ideally these three items would come in a distant second to building the best possible course - I wonder if there are places where the 1st and 18th greens are nowhere near the clubhouse, and the Nines don't return.

Stone Eagle comes immediately to mind, but the bar area serves as stand-in clubhouse here.

Taking it one step further, what if the best routing dictates that the 18th hole leaves you somewhere other than where you started your round.  Any good examples?  

Industry Hills Zaharias is the closest thing I can think of...though the lateral distance between 18 green and the clubhouse is not far, the climb of several hundred feet places the 18th green probably a half mile from the clubhouse once you're done walking it (since the Funicular has been DOA for years)

Re: the 3 or 6 hole loop...It's kind of an odd idea...even if it happens incidentally, it still throws me for a loop, no pun intended.  I just played Fazio's Primm Valley this weekend, a 36 hole facility on the CA/NV border en route to Vegas from LA, and the Lakes course returns to the clubhouse at 9 and then at 15, taking you on a 4-3-4 triangle loop for the closing stretch.  Interestingly, while this was a bit odd for my tastes, I felt those three holes were three of the best on the course and were I a member with 30 minutes to kill, I'd gladly jump onto the 16th tee and play three quick ones.  

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