RTJ's London Hunt Club

[TEPaul]

I just came back from a few days at Ontario's London Hunt Club, a course that's sort in the middle of RTJ's long career.

I guess I'd have to say that London Hunt Club was the site of my best success as a golfer back in 1991. I'd played the course for one to two days in June every year for maybe ten years before finally winning the London Hunt Invitational and very unexpectedly in the last few holes.

But even looking back on all that now, London Hunt to me was just another course I was playing on, like any of the others anywhere, even including the likes of PVGC, Merion, Oakmot or Seminole or Maidstone. I never much let golf architecture enter my mind in those days----all I was trying to do is play and score the best I could.

I hadn't been back up there for fifteen years before going up there last year at this time to talk to them about the concept and application of the "Ideal Maintenance Meld". I didn't even play it last year.

But I did the other day and last year I really started to look very closely at that course from an architectural standpoint.

I don't think I know any RTJ courses except Golden Horseshoe.

The London Hunt and it's unique RTJ architecture has been truly growing on me though.

It's a pretty nice site for golf, particularly in some spots on the course but the real true unique theme of London Hunt is its enormous greens and their shapes.

On average the greens are well over 8,000sf but the shapes of most of them are just so challenging to play to. Many of them (perhaps even too many of them) are absolutely huge side to side with huge greenspace "wings" completely protected in front by bunkering with either the middle of one side open in front.

There is no question at all that this type of offering is just totally in your face strategic. You can sure opt to take it into the open portions but if the pin ain't there you might have a putt of 100 feet. We were laughing because on one hole I hit a sand shot about 40 YARDS over the top of one pin and I WAS STILL ON THE GREEN!

Oh, by the way, Bob Pattinson, London Hunt's really good super just totally NAILED the "Ideal Maintenance Meld". I don't think I've ever seen it so ideal on a course. I played the course from over 7,200 yards and even me who can hardly fly a ball 200 yards right now could scrape it around OK if I thought well enough.

They had some really good young players up there this year for the Invitational and one under won the thing for the 36 hole one day tournament so Bob's IMM was definitely challenging for the best players.

I guess the reason I'm posting this thread is maybe RTJ's star has declined some generally or particularly for those who frequent this website but if his work has the bones and the greens and their challenge that London Hunt has, RTJ sure as hell had something unique and special going for him and his place in the long interesting history and evolution of golf course architecture.

The course does have the usual wavy, gravy mounding along the sides of some of the holes, and if it didn't have that it would probably look better but that kind of thing never really means much of anything playability-wise in something like the London Hunt Invitational.

[BCrosby]

TEP -

What year was London Hunt built?

You are right that people need to look at RTJ with a fresh set of eyes. I and others have been too eager to dismiss him as the evil genius that brought on the Dark Ages.

Down this way, Peachtree ('48) is a fascinating RTJ in the sense that you can almost see, hole by hole, RTJ transitioning from a Golden Ager into something else.

I'm still not clear about the "something else" part. I suspect that whatever RTJ evolved into in the 50's is a lot more complex than we usually assume.

Bob

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

As I'm sure you know, Rees reworked the course recently. I'd be interested to know how comprehensive his work was, in regard to changes to his dad's original design. Any idea?

Also, London Hunt is hosting the Canadian Women's Open later this year. At 7,200 yards from the back tees, I hear it could probably host the men's Open in the near future.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
As I'm sure you know, Rees reworked the course recently. I'd be interested to know how comprehensive his work was, in regard to changes to his dad's original design. Any idea?"

Jeff:

Sure I do. I remember the way the course was when I first went up there which was basically an on-going bastardization of RTJ's original course by all kinds of asundry people including the club. Essentially, in the last three years they got Rees (or more particularly Keith Evans) to restore most of what his Dad originally built. There are some aspects that Rees did differently though. You know the way it goes----Rees learned from his Dad but there is enough of a healthy degree of competitiveness amongst all the Jones for Rees to actually restore his Dad's course totally without any of his own input.  

I believe the one thing that was never really touched though were those unique greens.

They are thinking of adding a third nine that is supposed to be intentionally different than the other two for older players, women and kids et al. The hallmark of the third nine is supposed to be fun, fun, fun. RTJ actually left a third nine routing and McBroom did another third nine routing (all on the same land). I have them both right here. But I expect Rees to do his own. It will be interesting to see what Rees says about that third nine when he realizes he might have some consulting input from one of the world's greatest sleeper geniuses on architectural concept.  

I was told the LPGA will be playing the course from around 6,500-66,000.
 

[TEPaul]

Bob:

C&W say London Hunt was done in 1962 but the plan I have says 1958 on it. I don't know much about RTJ but I like his 1950s stuff better than his later stuff. The same with Dick Wilson.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting Tom. Thanks.

I need to get to London to have a look at the course, since Rees' redo.

I've heard good things about Bob Pattinson's work too.

[TEPaul]

"I need to get to London to have a look at the course, since Rees' redo."

Jeff:

I love walking around and just looking at golf architecture but London Hunt is not a course to just go look at---you really do need to play it----and you need to play it when it's firm and fast both "through the green" and on the greens the way it was last Monday.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sounds kinda exciting, considering I've played a few times this year at Rivershore in Kamloops, British Columbia. Rivershore's a pretty bland RTJ effort of the mid-1980s era (shortly before Kananaskis), featuring very little to write home about.

[Ryan Crago]

jeff,

have you played at the Dunes in the 'loops as well?  i'd be interested on your comparison of that v. Rivershore... and even v. Kananaskis.

ps. pardon the threadjack.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ryan,

I played The Dunes once. If I had five rounds between The Dunes and Rivershore, I'd play 4 at the latter.

I haven't been to Kananaskis yet.

[Robert Thompson]

Oh, by the way, Bob Pattinson, London Hunt's really good super just totally NAILED the "Ideal Maintenance Meld". I don't think I've ever seen it so ideal on a course. I played the course from over 7,200 yards and even me who can hardly fly a ball 200 yards right now could scrape it around OK if I thought well enough.

Tom: Have you posted on this "maintenance meld" deal before and where can I find info on it? I played Hunt on Saturday and the course was certainly in fine shape. And considering how dry it has been in Southern Ontario, I wasn't surprised it played relatively firm. But I didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary. So what should I have noticed?

[Ian Andrew]

While Trent Jones is the architect of record, he shared the site with Robbie Robinson who was also a long time friend.

Not my favourite course, mainly due to the excessively large (10,000 sq.ft on average) greens that never thrilled me.

The renovation is pretty good, it was done by Keith Evans.
he managed to take the bunkers up to the scale of the greens well.

I'm willing to bet there isn't a Canadian Open in three years