Does Jack want it both ways?

[Dan Herrmann]

I was surprised to see The Golden Bear doing a blurb on The Golf Channel pitching his Nicklaus driver.  He claimed that it was the longest on the market, and that you'd be hitting you longest drives ever if you used it.

This is the same Jack that complains about how distance is ruining the game, and how equipment will render older courses obsolete.

What am I missing?  Can these two opinions be reconciled?

[Dan Herrmann]

True, but what would happen if you played a new 1985-era wound ball with a 460cc modern driver?  Wouldn't you find amzaing increases in distance and much better results with off-center shots?

FWIW, Jack has always been a sports hero to me, and I still feel that way.  Seeing him in play person for the first time was a memory I'll have forever.  He hit a 200 yard 6-iron from heavy rough to a tight #17 green at Glen Abbey in the Canadian Open in 1979 - and this kid was about 8 feet away.  Never forget it..

[Dave_Miller]

Only if he takes the position that the ball is the problem.

And whaddya know, he does!  

To me, he's more guilty of hawking range finders.  

Dave:
I'm with you.  Jack has always wanted it both ways.  The range finder ads at the time were a "serious breach"
Best
Dave

[JMorgan]

This is from Shakelford's site:

JACK NICKLAUS - Many times over the years Nicklaus has called for a ball rollback and discussed the ramifications of recent distance increases. From 2005: "The biggest thing I fear as I leave the game is how far the ball will go because we don’t have the real estate to move back.” And at the 2006 Masters: "I promise you, it's very simple to bring that ball back 10 percent and still keep the same characteristics," he said. "That's not a big deal. ... If the golf ball goes shorter, you don't have to come out every year and have the same conversation: 'What did we do to Augusta to combat what happened to the golf ball last year?'"

And here is what he said in '04, from The Future of Golf:  "I build them, and as soon as I give them to the owner I say they are obsolete.  And they are. I mean, every time you start a golf course, it takes you a couple of years to do it.  By the time you've gone through 2 years to change the golf course, they have changed the equipment enough that you haven't designed for it."

Hmmm.

[JMorgan]

Shivas, I suppose; but if he is emphasizing length as the selling point for the driver, don't you see that as wanting your cake/eating it too?  

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, both Jack Nicklaus AND Arnold Palmer have something of a problem with what one might legitimately call a "consistency of opinion or purpose".  

[TEPaul]

"Thus, Nicklaus can rationally take the position that game improvement technology is good, while course obseletion technology is bad."

Shivas:

You just may have a valid point there. I've always been told that Nicklaus is an unusually bright guy.

From what I seem to be hearing from some pretty competent "tech" people (including the USGA) is that this idea (perhaps among other things) of perhaps adding a sixth regulation on the golf ball of a limititation on MINIMUM spin rate just may be something of a win/win situation in the real world of golf ball performance across the MPH and ability spectrum.

Here's why;

In theory (with physics) a higher spinning golf ball should serve the purpose of giving low swing speed players (perhaps accurate to say those below 105 mph clubhead speed) more lift and consequently more carry distance.

On the other hand, a higher swing speed player (those above 105mph) will tend to get less carry distance with a higher spin rate golf ball.

The reason for that apparently is lower swing speed players just can't hit the ball hard enough to put the amount of drag on a high spin rate golf ball that high swing speed players can. Obviously additional "drag" counteracts "lift".

In practice, this very well may significantly close the relatively recent increased distance gap between low swing speed players and high swing speed players sort of like the way it was when basically all high swing speed players used higher spin rate balls and low swing speed players didn't.

As you may have already picked up on, if this technical fact is true it may even additionally help low swing speed players because in theory all these years they should've been using higher spin rate balls rather than the low spin rate balls most all of them did use.  

[JMorgan]

Orpheus

[Lou_Duran]

Nicklaus can be called a lot of things, but being a hypocrite should not be one of them.  People who know him well will tell you that he is frank and direct to a fault.  In regards to the distance problem, his focus of attention has been on the golf ball and the professional game.

He is in the equipment business, now as a 100% owner of the company which bears his name (no pun intended).  What would you have him do, build and sell clubs which hit a conforming ball less far?  Don't forget that his short distance Cayman ball idea for the short course he built (in the Virgin Islands, I think) was a big dud.  As has been suggested on this site, golfers do want to play more golf.  They also want to hit the ball further.

Shivas,

Tell me again what is the material difference between walking a course to get the distances, refering to a yardage book, and using a range finder?  Since nearly all of us agree that fast golf is superior to the slow variety, I would think that a range finder is a good thing.  Where has Nicklaus (and me) gone wrong?  BTW, I don't have any plans to get one.  I've been slow to evolve.      

[Tom_Doak]

Lou is right.  Of course, Jack is trying to make money EVERY way he can in the golf business, and that does lead to some conflicts and hair-splitting in making stands on principle.  But he's been pretty consistent throughout that the golf ball needs to change for the best players, and he hasn't done anything in the equipment business to change that.

Or, maybe he is just trying to put his old Macgregor balls back into circulation -- they certainly didn't go as far as the competition, even 20 years ago!

[JMorgan]

Or, maybe he is just trying to put his old Macgregor balls back into circulation -- they certainly didn't go as far as the competition, even 20 years ago!

There you go!

[Lou_Duran]

Shivas,

Range finders are "legal" under many certain circumstances, and I don't think Nicklaus advocates their use when not.  To the best of my knowledge, no one has been disqualified for shooting distances during practice rounds.

Pin sheets and well marked sprinkler heads do make the game faster for those who want to shoot the best score they can.  Perhaps not for the hit and giggle crowd, and those others who do not place any importance on the speed of play.

BTW, I often walk in the heat of summer looking at every pin position and getting a distance on every approach and still finish in three hours.  I just did it twice this week.

As to your preferences, do they include not having a flag to mark the spot of the hole?  I wonder if when you were competing in the Big Ten you felt the same way.  

[Lou_Duran]

Shivas,

The only ad I vaguely remember of Nicklaus and the range finder did not advocate its illegal use.  And certainly, they did not suggest their mandatory use.

We will disagree about speed of play issues.  I will only say that people who need to know approximate distances before pulling the trigger will normally play faster when the uncertainty is eliminated.  If nothing else, it should save the time it takes to make additional strokes.

As to my playing in three hours, please give me a bit of a break.  I am just a fat, old fart taking five medications for various things that ail me.  BTW, I didn't say I did it as a single, unless you are suggesting that I can't get a game except with my best friend, me.  As a matter of fact, we were a threesome yesterday, had to go around a foursome on the front, and waited patiently on the last four or five holes.  BTW, I would enjoy watching you play Medinah in 95* heat, carrying.  But maybe you're a better physical specimen than what meets the eye.

Ok, I am off to power wash my pool deck after hours of procrastinating.  I am playing tomorrow afternoon in the sultry north Texas heat sans range finder, but on my feet.  It won't be a three hour round, and nobody will give a damn if I look at the color of the flag (pin position) and step the distance off from the nearest sprinkler head.  God, at the risk of having to wear a hard hat always, I so wish everyone would play golf like Shivas claims.

[Dave_Miller]

Shivas,

The only ad I vaguely remember of Nicklaus and the range finder did not advocate its illegal use.  And certainly, they did not suggest their mandatory use.

 

Lou:
There were several ads of Jack Nicklaus pushing the use of range finders for the everyday player and they were clearly not permitted under the ruls of golf at the time.  
Arnie got grief for advocating the everyday player could use the ERC Driver and Jack got a free pass on the range finders.
Best
Dave

[PThomas]

Of course, Jack is trying to make money EVERY way he can in the golf business, and that does lead to some conflicts and hair-splitting in making stands on principle.

I wonder if he is hawking them for the money - God knows why if that is the only reason, since I would think he has enough - , that he really believes that we should use them, or both...

and I think Arnie got a pretty good beating over the nonconforming driver, while Jack and Arnie have gotten a free pass...of course, the rangefinders are legal now