I'VE BEEN HAD (by C&C)

[Ryan Farrow]

I finally got a chance to play my first Coore and Crenshaw course today, Talking Stick North. I had a great time and most of what I heard was true, great bunkering, wide fairways, some great green contours etc.....

I am very lucky to have been playing as single because the hole named "BRASSIE" embarrassed the hell out of me. The hole from the middle tee plays to about 217 yards, so I pull out a 5 wood. This is what I see from the tee:



So what to do? There is a big ass bunker right in front of the green which judging by the rest of the bunkers so far is about 3 feet deep. I highly doubt my 5 wood will hold the green if I could even make it there on the fly.

So I play left hoping to get a little draw or a nice bounce to the green, you know the safe play.

I end up missing a little long and left of the green, just as Ran’s course profile mentions, a difficult position to save par.

But as I drive up to my tee shot (we drive in the desert because it’s kind of hot here and no, Jordan, the cart paths were not hidden (you would hate this place )) I see the massive bunker is nowhere near the green

Look at this mess:



(Yea, that’s at least 20 yards short of the green)

Anyways, I walked away with a 4 and a big







Have you also been had? Want to get it off your chest? Your are at the right place!

[Rick Shefchik]

Yes -- by Langford & Moreau, at Lawsonia.





Never having played the course before, I went left of the big grass mound at 200 yards, thinking I saw open fairway beyond. What I really saw was the fairway of the adjacent 9th hole -- so I ended up in the fairway bunker pictured above.

Did I feel like a sucker.

[Bob_Huntley]

Ryan,

Rees Jones did it to us on the Dunes 17th hole. Substantial bunker in front of the green but at least a fifteen yard or more of sward to the apron.

It only does it to you once. If I remember he did it before at the Nantucket G.C.

Bob

[Michael Simes]

The 13th at Engineers gets every non-member playing partner I've ever played with.  

A tee shot that you would bet your mortgage is down the center of the fairway actually hugs the right side of the fairway or is even in the rough, effectively blocking any approach with a large tree about 40yd shy of the green.  

If I had a nickel for every playing partner who said "Hey, wait a minute, I thought those trees were over there?!?" as we walk out into the fairway, I could probably buy a gallon of gas.

[Doug Ralston]

Kearney Hills [Pete Dye] #6  [i think], the second is uphill to a green behind a deep bunker. From below, you assume it is greenside, but it is 25-30 yd short. My second was 20 yd short. Trust yourr yardage marker, not your vision!

Later, I was right and below a green, a bit away from the fairway markings and could see three trees obviously around the green. So I hit a beautiful 9-iron straight over them. 20 yards short again! [Fool me twice .........].

As pointed out, would know better second time ..... if there IS a second time

Doug

[Bill_McBride]

Ryan, did you forget to buy the TSN yardage book?  It's a beauty, and very clearly shows the 30 yards between bunker and #11 green.  Without a caddy, it's easy to get tricked like that.  How'd you like the central bunkers on #4 and #5, and the split fairway on #12?  There are some neat holes out there.  I'm not a big fan of the back and forth holes late in the round, 13-14-15-17, #18 is a great finisher.

[Ryan Farrow]

The yardage book, among other things, was included for all of $35. I wouldn’t say it is clear in the yardage book but I certainly didn’t study it either before my shot I gave it a quick glance because it was a par 3 and I thought I could rely on what I saw from the tee. I was obviously wrong.

As for the central bunkers…. stupid me learned how to consistently drive the ball 280-300 yards when I woke up this morning, so I carried them as well as most other bunkers with ease. If I could do it over again I would have played from the tips.

The course is not perfect by any means and as I went through some of that back stretch it did feel like I’ve been here before. Those few holes do lack some variety. I also thought 18 was a perfect finishing hole just as #1 was a perfect opener.




How does it compare to the south course? I am planning to get back over there before the rates jump up

[Tim Taylor]

Ryan, I'll leave you with a quote from one of the best bands in the land, Dallas's own Old 97's:

I've been had, at least that's how it looks
and it's not funny like on TV
and it's not smart like it is in books

Tim

[Jordan Wall]

Ryan,

I'm glad you liked the course.

My first experience with a C&C course was really cool as well.
Have fun and the South and take some pictures!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ryan

What was the weather like today in the Valley of the Sun?

What about hole#2 which is frequently mentioned here  and hole#12 ? Those were my favorite holes along with the 11th.


Steve

[Ryan Farrow]

Steve, it is 105 right now and probably did not get above 85 when I was playing.

Number 2 is a neat hole but it’s only as hard as you want to make it. Hugging the left side doesn't make sense unless you want to go at it in 2. 12 is also a great hole if you want to go at the stick you need to be on that left fairway. 2 outstanding holes ,nothing more needs to be said.

[Bill_McBride]

I was a little disappointed in the South, but just as it compared to the North, which is as interesting a flat course as I've ever played.  The South is a bit more parkland as there are quite a few trees.  The bunkering scheme is also more traditional, I don't remember any central bunker / split fairways.  The big disappointment was the very weak pair of closing holes, a very short par 3 and equally short par 4 with a lake on the right side.  Ho hum compared to the finishing rippers on the North side.

[Ryan Farrow]

Do you think the south course could have been more of a back-up if the north course failed miserably? Or is this a simple way of distinguishing the two courses and giving them each their own identity? You guys got me really interested in the south course all of the sudden, as if a round at the north wasn't enough.

I don't see C&C creating an outstanding course on one side of the clubhouse and a mediocre layout on the other. Its not like the property is any different, its flat desert, nothingness, for miles on end.

[Matthew Rose]

I played the South course once and loved it. It is one of my best memories of my Phoenix/Vegas spring break trip I took when I was 21.

We had booked it as an afterthought. We were playing the TPC and then Grayhawk the previous couple of days and wanted something different. I knew absolutely nothing about the place. Remember thinking it was different to any desert course I've seen.

I ended up having a fantastic round; I bought a new putter the previous day and that day was the first time I'd used it. I made everything I looked at. Can't remember playing smoother, truer greens anywhere.

Loved the bunkering. Love the short par-3 on the back nine (#13?) and the split-fairway par five right after it (14?).

Wasn't the 18th driveable? I remember it being kind of a strange finishing hole somewhat out of context.

[TEPaul]

"Its not like the property is any different, its flat desert, nothingness, for miles on end."

My recollection from Coore is that the Talking Sticks project interested them because they really get into doing very different types of projects (maybe from their last) and with Talking Stick having about less than one foot of elevation change was definitely different from the project they came off of, Kapalua, that had about 500 feet of elevation change.