Could a SandPro have saved Pine Valley's bunkers?

[Kyle Harris]

Sand Pros do offer many advantages when used correctly and in a limited fashion.

The scarifier digs deep... meaning they help in uprooting volunteer trees in bunkers not often visited.

If Pine Valley Pro'ed their bunkers a handful of times a season, would the corridors have remained more preserved?

Any other thoughts on the POSITIVE side of continued bunker maintenance?

Can bunkers be prepared in such a way to add an element of randomness to both the visual presentation (that takes the furrow rake out of contention) and playability?

[Craig Sweet]

Do those "dunes" at Sanhill change over time, or are their contours preserved?

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
I wasn't sure if you were kidding or not when I first read the topic of this thread, but now I realize you are serious.  I don't have time to elaborate on mechanical rakes, but as you know there are pros (and numerous cons) in their use.  Forrest and I spent a lot of time discussing bunker maintenance and consulted with many of the top Superintendents about it.  I think you would find that section interesting to look through.

Like you said in that other thread - much of it comes down to using mechanical rakes "correctly".  Proper training and discipline is key!!

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
I wasn't sure if you were kidding or not when I first read the topic of this thread, but now I realize you are serious.  I don't have time to elaborate on mechanical rakes, but as you know there are pros (and numerous cons) in their use.  Forrest and I spent a lot of time discussing bunker maintenance and consulted with many of the top Superintendents about it.  I think you would find that section interesting to look through.

Mark,

Dead serious, in fact. I've been negligent and haven't even looked for yours and Forrest's book yet, though I have Routing the Golf Course.

Mechanical Rakes certainly have their place and usage. Just takes some creativity to not have them hinder bunker playability.

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
You will enjoy it when you get around to picking up a copy.  I'm pleased to say the publisher is getting ready to re-print it.  (The royalties coming in are enormous.  Forrest and I might even be able to buy our wives donuts to go with the cup of coffee when we get our next check   ).
I wish they would make the book a little larger but we have little to no say.  

[JESII]

Kyle,

Did Pat Mucci invade your computer? Rumor has it he'll may invade the Philadelphia area this summer and this question reeks of North Jersey.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Kyle =

Two questions:

#1 - Can we remove every other tine from the SandPro furow the bunkers?

#2 - Our PSU Alum Super and I are ready to take you around Willie Park Jr.'s Woodway/Are you coming to NYC for the U.S. Open?

JWK

[Kyle Harris]

James,

I think you're getting at removing the rake portion of the SP and just having the scarifier. I am sure one could attach a furrowing rake to a SandPro and get the same effect.

As for the US Open - I will probably be up on Saturday (my day off). Woodway would be a wonderful sidetrip or daytrip some time. Let's get in contact later in the week and set something up.

JES II,

Any channeling of Pat Mucci is purely coincidental. I sure hope he comes down and sees some of our courses - I think he'd be impressed.

Question came out of the my use of the SandPro this past weekend and the removal of small saplings from our bunkers. They come up quickly and just got me thinking of trees in bunkers at Pine Valley and how the simple task of SandProing a few times a season may have help abate the advance of the tree line.

[Steve Curry]

Kyle,

They do periodically sandpro the bunkers and I don't think that has any bearing on the vegetation.  The trees that have impacted play were planted.

Best,
Steve

[archie_struthers]

 

Great picture of #6!

One of the easiest holes on the golf course, definitely the best birdie opportunity on the front nine for most players. But that's for another thread.
 
The bunkers haven't changed much since Superintendent Dick Bator cut out lots of brush or "gronkel" in the early 80's.

I'll never forget being out on a loop with "Tex" (famous caddy circa 1975)  pre Bator. It was really gnarly then and much more overgrown. One of his players hit it way right off the tee here. Tex stood on the edge of the pit holding two wedges and a 7-iron, which he tossed to his player. Tex was anywhere from 55-80 years at the time, as liquor had masked his true age, and refused to go down into the hole.

His man, no doubt exasperated by the shot and his caddies reluctance to accompany him; loudly asked him if he was coming down to help locate the ball. Tex, in a classic reply,  dutifully answered: no sir, my brother went down there about a week ago and hasn't been seen since!

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

I'm not sure where the title or premise of this thread comes from. What do you mean if PV sand-proed their bunkers? I'm almost sure they do at least that's the way most all their bunkers that a sand pro could get into look to me. That's the way it all looks to me and has for maybe a half dozen years now. It gives a whole lot of PV's sand area a pretty clean and maintained look.

Before that most all sand areas were a whole lot rougher looking---eg at least the sand itself was.

I mean up until maybe a half dozen years ago when you walked through some of the massive sand areas of PV like #1, #2,#3, #4, #7, #16 there were about ten million footprints all over those areas. No more---those areas are always pretty clean and well maintained now.

Personally, I think they should just go back to the way it always was all these decades. They got to the top and that sure didn't hurt them---it probably enhanced their reputation because of that. PVGC, the #1 course in the world was the last golf course I'm aware of that hardly raked their sand areas at all, and they probably have more of it than any course.

I'm also not sure what you mean by your question; "could the corridors have been more preserved?"

What corridors? The hole corridors? One interesting thing about the hole corridors of PV, the fairway hole corridors, at least, is they have virtually never changed and the reason for that is PVGC basically never had any rough. They only have slight ribbons of it today so the fairway mowers can turn. Frankly, they could probably just cut out those turning ribbons of rough if they decided to just go with an up and back cut all the time.

That's one of the interesting things I just learned on that up and back fairway cut thread I started. For clubs that go to the up and back cut they don't have to turn in the rough about 200 times per hole.  

[Steve Curry]

Archie,

The caddies were the subjects of so many stories.  There was one I will never forget, they called him Dogman, he used to catch my ear about this patch of greens turf on one of the greens and he wanted to get a patent on it.

Tom,

when I was there in 90 I think we only did the bunkers with the sandpro maybe 3 times during the season.  The rest of the time they were tracked up.


Steve

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
when I was there in 90 I think we only did the bunkers with the sandpro maybe 3 times during the season.  The rest of the time they were tracked up."

Steve:

That's what I mean about the way it used to be compared to the way it is now. As rough as the sand areas always seemed to me to be back then (thousands of footprints) every time I was there including the Crump Cups, I thought maybe they did them a few more times than just three a year but you were there and obviously know. Now they are all almost always clean of any footprints. Most of the time it seems like you're walking through virgin snow, if you know what I mean.

Back then I thought the whole point of them was to have millions of footprints. There never were rakes on the course and there still aren't but those sand pros have to touch up all the sand areas every day now it's so clean and well maintained every time I've been there in the last half dozen years or so.

What do you think Steve? Do you think they should go back to the way it used to be or do you think they should just stick to doing it the way they do now?

[Mike_Cirba]

It's interesting to consider that on Golfweek's course ratings, the #1 courses in the country in both the classic and modern categories were courses sans bunker rakes or formal bunkers maintenance.

Of course, one of those courses now maintains them assiduously but today is no longer rated as #1.

Hmmm....probably just coincidence.

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

I haven't managed to be very convincing, but I have always thought courses should go to what was the way at PVGC.  Bunkers are hazards!  Fix them up when they are washed out and than leave them roughed up.  Who was it that had the quote about having elephants run through them?  Mac, Tillie?

Steve

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle & Steve,

It's an interesting question, especially in the context of an experiment meant to curtail invasive root growth into the fairways, years and years ago.

I believe PV tried inserting a metal shield, about a foot in depth, into the soil on the fairway lines in an attempt to inhibit root growth into the fairways.

If one views that project in the context of an awareness of the invasive nature of nearby trees, it shouldn't require a quantum leap to apply the same concept or thinking to bunkers and their maintainance.

While I agree with Steve that some trees were planted and subsequently caused problems, other areas suffered from benign neglect where trees, shrubs and undergrowth were allowed to invade the lines of play and the bunkers themselves.

My answer to Kyle's question would be "yes", because that would have indicated an awareness of the need to maintain the bunkers and protect them from invasive growth.

JES II,

Kyle and I have had no conversation or communication of this issue.  There are those of us who see the issues independently and clearly, and then, there are you guys from the Philadelphia area who only see things through a layer of cream cheese.

[JESII]

Pat,


I new this would wake you out of your slumber. Nice to hear from you.


The answer to the question is no because the sand pro does not get to the edge of the bunkers where the tree growth has occurred. That's a fact, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Look at any of the pictures posted on here over the years and you'll see that the trees are growing at the edges of the bunkers and between them, the sand pro does not cover that ground.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You've been trying to avoid me by doing foolish and evasive things like spending quality time with your family or actually working, haven't you?  

You have a lot to answer on the spin rate thread, and just trying to avoid me won't get it done.  

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Patrick is so dense or so myopic on the subject of Pine Valley he does not realize that between 1927 and 1931 PV planted app 3,000-5,000 trees PER YEAR on the golf course and terraced some real problem areas and planted them with vegetation simply to stabalize the golf course---eg what they referred to as "holding the course together".

Trivial little things like that don't seem to occur to Pat. He wants to return the look of the course to the way it was in the teens and early 1920s and if it just slides and falls apart that doesn't seem to bother him.

It is just frightening trying to deal with people that opaque---he mentioned the subject of cream cheese? Well he ought to look himself in the mirror---that is if he can see through the Northern Jersey cream cheese.  

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey guys, as to the sand pro, as I previously stated pre super superiontendent  Bator you probably couldn't run one in most of the big waste bunkers. The gorse, trees, junk, gronkle, etc was just too thick.

 My opinion, although it made the course easier, just like tree removal, it made it better.

regards

"archie"

[Patrick_Mucci]

The answer to the question is no because the sand pro does not get to the edge of the bunkers where the tree growth has occurred. That's a fact, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Look at any of the pictures posted on here over the years and you'll see that the trees are growing at the edges of the bunkers and between them, the sand pro does not cover that ground.

JES II,

You're focused on micro rather than macro issues.

Obviously, in areas unaccesible to the Sand Pro, hand raking would have been employed.

The critical issue isn't in the method, it's in the concept, the awareness of the problem, and, when viewed in that context it's obvious that the use of a Sand Pro would be indicative of the desire to preserve playing conditions, and that the instruments for implementing the maintainances practices aren't nearly as material as the understanding of the need to preserve and protect the bunkers from invasive growth, internally and externally.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick is so dense or so myopic on the subject of Pine Valley he does not realize that between 1927 and 1931 PV planted app 3,000-5,000 trees PER YEAR on the golf course and terraced some real problem areas and planted them with vegetation simply to stabalize the golf course---eg what they referred to as "holding the course together".

That sounds nice, but, a hole by hole review reveals your disclaimer as questionable at best.

One only has to take a look at the evidence, the ground and aerial photos circa 1922-1925, PRIOR to the massive tree planting program to realize how absurd that excuse to legitimize the introduction of thousands of trees, shrubs and undergrowth is.

Look at the 1925 aerials and tell me that the bunkers flanking both sides of the 2nd fairway needed to have trees planted in them, behind them, in front of them and to the sides of them.

Look at the 1925 aerials and tell me where trees were needed for stabilization ?  Behind # 9 green, maybe.

Adding 3,000 to 5,000 trees PER YEAR post 1925 was a mistake, architectually and from the perspective of playability.

Trivial little things like that don't seem to occur to Pat. He wants to return the look of the course to the way it was in the teens and early 1920s and if it just slides and falls apart that doesn't seem to bother him.

That's another absurd statement.
LOOK at the 1925 aerials, then tell me what needed to be stabilized ?

Where was # 7 going to slide to ?
How about # 13 and # 14 ?
# 15 and # 16 ?

The aerials on pages 53 and 56 of Geoff Shackelford's book,
"The Golden Age of Golf Design" tell you all you need to know.

As of 1925, the golf course was firmly anchored and gorgeous.

The planting of 3,000 to 5,000 trees PER YEAR was a colossal mistake, one that you'll never admit to.

It is just frightening trying to deal with people that opaque---he mentioned the subject of cream cheese? Well he ought to look himself in the mirror---that is if he can see through the Northern Jersey cream cheese.  

In Northern New Jersey, cream cheese is politically incorrect, it's either Ricotta, Mozzarella or Parmigian.

And, don't ever forget,

Laugh, and the whole world laughs with you.
Prov, and you Provolone.

[BCrosby]

"And, don't ever forget,

Laugh, and the whole world laughs with you.
Prov, and you Provolone."

The funniest thing I've heard all day.  

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

You didn't think the comment was too "cheesey" did you ?