Chemical to make greens play more firm

[Jason Topp]

I understand that in my area, many courses are using some sort of chemical to firm up the greens, replacing rolling for the most part.  

Is this common elsewhere?

What are the positives and negatives of this approach vs. rolling?

Do the chemicals pose an increased risk of pollution V. rolling the greens?

[Jim Thompson]

Jason,

Given that most supers consider compaction to be one of their greatest enemies, I find this very hard to believe.  Are you sure your not talking about growth regulators?

JT

[Craig Sweet]

Jason, growth regulator use can lead to slightly faster greens speed....and maybe....maybe using a phosphorus based fertilizer.

[Craig Sweet]

Jason, I'm sorry...I ment potassium....time for bed!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jason,
You may be referring to growth regulators as already noted, but although they most definitely can help speed up the greens, I don't see how they could firm up a green by their use alone.
You may also be referring to the use of wetting agents. Not technically a pesticide, wetting agents are a lot closer chemically to the dish soap you use at home them any type of agricultural "chemical". Without a doubt, proper use of wetting agents in concert with solid greens management will help to firm up the greens.
Lastly, you may be referring to the use of silica products that claim to "harden" the leaf blade resulting in a firmer surface. I'm very skeptical of these claims, although you will find many supts who use silica products regularly. I've found no independent research that backs claims made by the manufacturers of these products.

[Kyle Harris]

To clarify on Don's post, wettings agents break down the surface tension of the water in order to allow them to be abosorbed more quickly. This helps stop the need for a heavy syringe in order to get the water deep in the soil.

[Craig Sweet]

Don...hardening of the leaf blade...isn't that the claim made for potassium, and to some extent,phosphorus?

[Joe Hancock]

PGR's can increase plant and root density, making things play firmer.

Potassium, phosphorous and small amounts of nitrogen, as well as other micronutrients can increase cell wall thickness in a plant structure.

There is no such thing as deep syringing. Syringing is the term used for light irrigation cycles to either water in a fertilizer or pesticide, or to help in dew removal.

Joe

[TEPaul]

My super tells me the wetting agent he's using has definitely helped firm up the course recently.

[Craig Sweet]

We apply a granular surfactant (wetting agent) while arifying the greens...and again 3-4 weeks later. During the summer we soak areas of isolated dry spot with a wetting agent (a tablet) applied from the end of a hose....

In and of itself, I'm curious how the wetting agent would "firm up" the greens?  

[Jason Topp]

Thanks everyone.  I'll check on what we are using.  The greens are great this year, although most are in the area.

[TEPaul]

"In and of itself, I'm curious how the wetting agent would "firm up" the greens?"

Craig:

It's a coincidence you ask that because our super is so impressed with the results from the use of a wetting agent that the subject became my "question of the month" at our last green committee meeting.

(I'll tell you what my "question of the month" is some other time. ).

Our super explained to the green committee exactly how a wetting agent works on the plant and why it results in firming up the course but I'm such a dunce and so untechnical agronomically I can't exactly repeat the agronomic technicalities of it. However, I will get him to write it down and I'll put it on here.

From a layman's point of view, however, the wetting agent basically creates a process with the plant whereby the plant recieves and uses irrigation so much more efficiently and effectively that the need for and use of irrigation is seriously minimized.

Consequently, that works to firm the course up.  

By the way, he uses the wetting agent right through our irrigation system.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

What the wetting agent does to firm the greens is to minimize the amount of excess water and maximize air in the root zone.  This seems to help keep them on the dry side, hence firm.  This could be bad with some sand based mixes....some sands require moisture for firmness (just picture wet bunkers vs. moist bunkers in regards to the fried egg possibilities).  

The important thing to remember is that there are alot of products out there with certain claims, and all are not true or do not fit into certain agronomic programs.  Each greenkeeper has to use the tools that he is comfortable with.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom Paul....I think the key thing about wetting agents is they allow for the "proper" movement of water through the root zone...but, as Don Mahaffey said, you need to combine the use of wetting agents with other cultural practices to fully reap their benefit.

[TEPaul]

"....but, as Don Mahaffey said, you need to combine the use of wetting agents with other cultural practices to fully reap their benefit."

Craig:

I'm certain that's true. All I'm saying is that our guy is really impressed with the results on firm and fast from his recent use of wetting agents. If you'd like I'll ask him what product he's using.  

[Craig Sweet]

I think "Slippery Water" would be an excellent name for a band....."we don't use drugs, just a liberal application of polyepoxide!"  

[TEPaul]

The hell with the name for a band---from now on my super will be called Bob "Slippery Water" Sawicki.  

"There is no such thing as deep syringing."

Joe:

Definitely. That would basically be a contradiction in terms.  

[Craig Sweet]

I love the smell of wetting agents...seriously.

[Marc Haring]

We've always used wetting agents but in the last year especially I have pretty much eliminated all thatch through top dressing, serious coring and very low N input and I have to say the greens are now extremely firm. Almost to the point where I can see the uneducated golfers starting to complain big time. You really do have to land the ball way short of the hole now, sometimes even try to check it into a bank or something. I love it but I can envisage the peasants revolting.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  All of the information shared is accurate and good reading but Jason what area are you in? This may help quide some of the discussion. Also, maybe you could check with a local Super to see what he is doing. Maybe the guys in your area are onto something different. Thanks

[Dan Kelly]

I think "Slippery Water" would be an excellent name for a band....."we don't use drugs, just a liberal application of polyepoxide!"  

I like "The Wetting Agents" as a band name. The various meanings could be particularly apropos for a severely aging band (think: Rolling Stones) that starts out inducing wetness and ends up ... experiencing it.

Sean Remington --

Jason is in the Twin Cities, in Minnesota.

[Joe Hancock]

I like "The Wetting Agents" as a band name.

I woulda thought they were matrimonial reception specialists.

Joe

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Thanks Dan and Joe. I'll never think of "The Wetting Agents" the same again. LOL  I agree, this is a great band name.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

We've always used wetting agents but in the last year especially I have pretty much eliminated all thatch through top dressing, serious coring and very low N input and I have to say the greens are now extremely firm. Almost to the point where I can see the uneducated golfers starting to complain big time. You really do have to land the ball way short of the hole now, sometimes even try to check it into a bank or something. I love it but I can envisage the peasants revolting.

Let them eat cake!

[Dan Kelly]

Let them eat cake!

I suggest Wetting Cake.