[JohnV]

I see that Michael Dugger has added a description of Pumpkin Ridge's Ghost Creek course under the My Home Course section.  Perhaps Ran was planning on announcing this, but since I saw it and had some comments I jumped the gun.

Here are some of my comments on the course from my 10 years of membership at Pumpkin Ridge.  Perhaps we can get John Kirk to do one of Witch Hollow some day (or perhaps I'll do it even though it is no longer my home course.)

#2 – I think you are being too harsh on the hole.  It was always one of my favorites.  The two “fakeout” bunkers about 60 yards short of the green give a good visual deception.  Also, the narrowness of the green puts an early premium on shot making.

#4 – I agree with most of what you say.  I never teed off on this hole intending to go for the green in two and usually hit a 3-wood.  The only time I ever did reach it was when I killed a 3-wood so far that I had to go for it.  I hit the front of the green and proceeded to 4-putt to a hole on the back.  I remember officiating at a mini-tour event that used to be held there (Portland Invitational) and watched a bunch of pros try to reach it.  Most blocked it left into the woods and were dead.  The next year, they all layed up.  The drop off to the left and the rise to the right of both the fairway and green make you hit it straight on all shots.

#5 - A brute of a par 3 with the green split by a couple of ridges into distinct sections across it.  Put the hole on the left where you have to carry the bunkers and not hook into the wetlands and it is about as hard a long par 3 as I can think of.

#6 - A very good shortish par 4 with a great small, but interesting green.

#7 – John Kirk and the rest of my old group affectionately called that first bunker the “tittie” bunker.  If you ignore those humps, the drive is interesting as you have to figure out how much of the set of bunkers you can carry.  The more you carry, the shorter and easier the second.  I don’t know how it plays today, but back when the greens were very firm, if you were coming in with a longer iron, you had to just carry the bunkers short of the green and run it on.  If you hit the green, it would go over the back which wasn’t good.

#9 - Some of us would play #9 by driving into the first fairway to the right. This took a lot of the water out of play.

#10 – I was surprised to see you say this was a three-shot hole as it was the most reachable of the par 5s on the course and during the years I kept my stats was the only hole on either course that I averaged under par on.  A good drive over the right hand bunker left a pretty short second and the creek really wasn’t in play for the good players.  In regard to your comments about frost, they used to regularly start us on 10 in the colder months because the back nine always defrosted earlier.  The course always played faster that way also.  I think that is because the front is tougher and players getting off to a poor start suffer more and slow down.

#11 – I wasn’t that bad a golfer back then (as low as a 1., but that damn creek gave me fits.  I knew you didn’t want to miss it left because of the slope of the green from the left and would push it into the creek.

#12 - really plays short for its length.  I can't think of that many greens at Ghost that have containment mounds all around it like #12.  #18 has them to the left and 15 has them.  The little shelf in the back left was always a tough hole to get near.

#13 – The spine down the green about 1/3 of the way from the right edge is a predominant feature that forces you to the correct side in order to avoid a difficult putt.

#14 – This was probably my least favorite hole on the course.  It just seemed too open and bland, even the green wasn't that interesting.  The best part of it was the view across the course and the Tualatin Valley.

#15 – FYI, Tiger got home with a 4-iron in the Amateur in ’96.  I never reached it with anything, but maybe with my new driver this summer (if the USGA lets us play it during the Women’s Am.)

#16 - A very nice short par 3, but the pros really ate it up during the Portland Invitational.  Probably too easy for them.

#17 - I loved moving the tees up on that hole during the final round of the PI.  The pros would hit it everywhere.  We had everything from 2 to 9 (and that was just in the first 6 groups one day.)  I once saw a guy make 9 on it and then had the threesome behind go 2-3-3 to beat him by 1.

#18 is a strong finishing hole with no bunkers.  The fairway is probably the widest on the course.

Overall, I think the greens at Ghost Creek are a not as interesting as Witch Hollow, but they do have a few which really have some spice such as #6, 12, 13 and 16.

I have to agree that Cupp/Fought got the sizing of the green correct at Pumpkin Ridge, although I'd like to see some of the bigger ones such as 1 and 14 have a little more frontal protection.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

A very good golf course with exception of the 17th, because have one of the stupidest hazards in the State of Oregano.

A wonderful site for golf.

Question: Would mentioning Helvatia Tavern be apt for Pumpkin Pie (Ridge) in Food & Golf thread?

I think so....

[Scott_Burroughs]

The first line from the writeup:

"Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club occupies a large swath of park and marshland roughly 15 miles east of Portland in the small community of North Plains."

East of Portland?  Are you sure about that?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Good eye Scott!
Michael should have sent it to the GCA Official Editor* (Dan Kelly) for approval first.

*Edited by me for untasteful content. I apologize to all if it offended.

[Peter_Herreid]

I guess I should comment, since Ghost is my home course "1B"...Michael, very nice job on capturing some of the key elements of Ghost Creek.  You must be a very fine player, if there are so many birdie holes out there for you.

Michael is dead on when he suggests that one of the strengths of the entire Pumpkin Ridge complex is the shaping of the greens into the contours, and the appropriateness of the green sizes, ridges, shapes and angles for the approaches required.  Many of the greens are shockingly small, or effectively small, such as #2, #6, #8!!!, #10, #16 and #17, but of course these are in general the shorter approaches anyway.

The angled greens on Ghost can be quite effective, and can really terrorize the approach from the "wrong" side of the fairway/rough--#4, #6, #12, #15, #17 and #18.

Ghost Creek was designed and constructed as the "Championship" track at Pumpkin, and as such had a fair amount of elasticity built in, to lengthen, contract or angle holes, as appropriate.  While technology advances have dulled some of that elasticity, there are still places to stretch out the yardage on the card.

That fact also leads to one of the drawbacks of Ghost Creek, in that it is not the most walker-friendly track around--not terrible, by any means, but there is a fair amount of doubling back, etc. to get to back tees, crossover holes, etc.

I find that the conditioning is a definite issue at Ghost, and I would suggest that is, in my opinion, way too wet too much of the year.  There are enough holes where it would seem a ball could bounced in, but can't really.  This is an endemic problem with Northwest courses, however, not just Ghost Creek.

The issue of flipping nines is an intriguing one.  After 50+ rounds there now, it seems pretty much a given that the front nine is a good 20-30 minutes (minimum) longer to play than the back.  It is also, arguably, the most difficult nine in the Portland area.  It can be a real death march out on Ghost on a summer afternoon.  While starting on #10 is not ideal, in terms of what one would think would be a reachable par-5 followed by a mid-length par-3, I have been amazed at how few people I have seen come even remotely close to reaching #10 in two blows...

LEAVING RESORT-ASSOCIATED GOLF COURSES OUT OF THE EQUATION (please note that), I think that Ghost Creek certainly deserves to be in the Top 30 or so of public access golf courses in the country.

I have a half-finished "My Home Course" profile of Witch Hollow sitting on my hard-drive.  I'll have to use Michael's fine job as inspiration to finish it...

[JESII]

The first line from the writeup:

"Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club occupies a large swath of park and marshland roughly 15 miles east of Portland in the small community of North Plains."

East of Portland?  Are you sure about that?  

Which direction from Partland is it?

[Peter_Herreid]

22 or so miles, almost due west, a little off Hwy 26, the Ocean Highway...

I would really characterize it as farmland, more than parkland, in the traditional midwest or East Coast vernacular.  The front nine is primarily routed around a significant wetlands (hey this is the Northwest--we can't call it a swamp!).  The back nine plays off and around a slope that heads downhill to the southwest...

I should note that there is a fair amount of containment mounding on Ghost Creek, whereas there is almost none (except between 7/8, for example) on Witch Hollow.  While this is a legitimate criticism of Ghost Creek, it unfortunately does not prevent having to "look alive" when playing #1, #9 and #10, for example.  John VB was right when he noted that #9 is really best played down the first fairway...

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Michael.  I'm a member at Pumpkin Ridge, and I've mentioned several times that Ghost Creek is my favorite of the two fine courses.  It has a better variety of hole lengths, and some remarkably large and small greens for a public course.

I like #2 better than Michael does, also.  I kind of like the flat chipping area right of the green.  The left greenside bunker is quite deep, and the narrow green slopes away from it.  The player is often confronted with making the pitch from the flat area.  It's kind of unique.  Rarely do you see dead flat rough beside a green.

#5 is one of my two favorite holes.  220 yards to a 10,500 square foot green, perhaps 27 yards deep and 50 yards wide.  Setting the hole on the extreme left of the green, just 10 yards or so from the wetlands hazard, yields a lot of 100-120 foot putts.  This is a very beautiful hole, isolated back in its own little valley, far from the clubhouse.

My other favorite is #8, a 500 yard par 5.  There is a 575 yard tee box for the back tees, but the hole is far better at the blue tee distance.  A big drive brings the green into view and tempts the player to go for it in two.  The green is tiny, maybe 3,000 square feet, and slopes away from the player.  A front right bunker offers rather standard punishment for mishits, but the key feature is the huge grass bunker left of the green.  This depression, about equal in size to the green, is nearly impossible to get up and down out of, unless the player is lucky enough to have a rare uphill lie for his third shot.  The player who pulls his second shot into the grass bunker often has difficulty hitting the green with his third.

In addition, the player is treated to a view of the beautiful Tualatin Valley as he makes his way down the green.

#9 is my least favorite hole on the course, even though it is the hardest hole.  The strong player's best chances for par is to drive the ball into the 1st fairway.  In general, I wish #1, #9, and #10 were played as one giant undulating field, as opposed to the flattish fairways bounded by containment (or spectator) mounding.  I like #10 quite a bit, but wish the little green had some contour.  Put Prairie Dunes' #9 green there and I'd be much happier.

One of our (me and John VanderBorght) best friends likes #16 best.  I believe it was designed to mimic #7 at Pebble Beach.

Tommy may not like #17, but the options for play work very well, and once again, the small green makes for exciting play.  One of the two years the Nike (now Nationwide) Tour Championship was played at Ghost, the leader came to #17, and hit his approach 25 feet from the flag, 15 feet off the green, and made 6.  He then birdied 18 (to a back right flag!) to win by one.

The "ghost" Creek is kind of silly, and the greens are rarely in the kind of condition to make the course come alive, but Ghost Creek is the better tournament test at Pumpkin Ridge.  

[John Kirk]

Scott,

It's farmland, though the courses were built from a tract of land featuring a mix of mature deciduous and evergreen trees.  The course weaves through forest, with a few meadow holes on each side.

[JohnV]

About 90% of the property at Pumpkin Ridge was owned by a convent in Southern California for about 50 years before it was acquired for the courses.  It hadn't been logged or touched in any way.  As I recall the owners traded a membership to a farmer for part of the land that includes holes 1, 9 and 10 on Ghost Creek.

As for preferences, I always liked the front 9 at Ghost Creek the best of any 9 on the property, but overall I preferred Witch Hollow.  The back 9 at Ghost loses something in the middle (12-15) for me.

Ghost was supposed to be the tournament course, but since the USGA chose Witch for the US Am, it has gotten the bigger events while Ghost did have the finals of the US Juniors and the then Nike Tour Championship, it has probably lost its claim to being the tournament course there.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
If you go back and read my critique, it isn't so much about the golf hole in particular (a short and very challenging par 4 which would now be relegated to nothing more then a par 3) if JVB ever got his his wish for the USGA to bring the US Open to the West Plains and hold it on a Pumpkin Ridge composite course. My critique is aimed at the ridiculous notion of making a pond in the same shape and obvious placement for a bunker.

[Jim Adkisson]

I find that the conditioning is a definite issue at Ghost, and I would suggest that is, in my opinion, way too wet too much of the year.  

Peter, I agree that with the money invested in building and maintaining GC, you would think the drainage would be better...my question is whether WH (where I have only played in the summertime) is a better wet weather course?

I'm looking forward to your MHC write-up of WH.

[JohnV]

Over the years I was a member, I had a few conversations with one of the owners of Pumpkin Ridge about how wet it got in the winter.  There are other courses in the Portland area that undertook heavy sanding programs in the fairways and over time became must drier in the winter.  His feeling was that he didn't want to do that because then they would have to put more water on the courses in the summer making it not play as firm and fast as it could.  He was willing to sacrifice some playability in the wet season to get better conditions in the summers.

What I noticed about the courses was that the water sat on top of the ground and drained off pretty quickly once the rains stopped.  While the courses might be very wet, they were rarely muddy.  It only seemed to take one or two days of dry weather to get them pretty dried out.

[Michael Dugger]

Geez,
 
I see the cat is out of the proverbial bag regarding my review of Ghost Creek.  Apologies regarding the typos, I hope to get Ran to help me fix those up.

I play golf all over the region, not having a membership at any club.  Pumpkin is one of my favorites, although I tend to agree with Tom Doak that those courses we think are the best around would be mere 6's in Philadelphia.  I've never been to Philly to play golf but I will assume this is a fair statement to make.

Ghost Creek is a classy club and I prefer it to The Reserve, but it will never be confused with Bandon.  I know that is a no-brainer, but I try to keep things in perspective when it comes to the big picture



 

[cary lichtenstein]

Eckstein:

Why don't you tell us who YOU are? You have come on this board and critque everything.

Come out of the closest

[John Kirk]

Mr. Eckstein,

My sense is Michael Dugger wasn't upset with John V., or the rest of us, for commenting on his nice addition to the "My Home Course" section.  Both John V. and I have strong opinions about Ghost Creek.  Whether we shared them now or later doesn't really make a difference, does it?

Pumpkin Ridge is the rare example of a club where both courses are very good.  I agree with Michael D. that Ghost deserves a 6 on the Doak scale (Tom gave Witch a 6 and Ghost a 5 in the Confidential Guide).

I'm sure JV's intention was to augment or comment upon Michael's report.  It didn't seem like he was ripping it apart.  Same with me; I've got lots of strong opinions about the course.

I disagree with John V., and feel Ghost Creek has the more interesting greens.  In my opinion, they are a little harder to read.  Once again, the big problem at Pumpkin Ridge is the greens are not kept fast enough to make the very gently sloped greens come alive.  At 15 years old, they are about halfway through a transition from bent to poa.

Now that I am older and  more experienced, I'd say the greatest flaw in Pumpkin Ridge's overall design is the lack of severity around the greens.  If they wanted a west coast Winged Foot capable of holding U.S. Opens, they should have made the green complexes appropriately severe.  But they thought they could keep the greens full of bent grass forever.  During the first few years, the greens were the smoothest I have ever seen.  Just perfect.

Pumpkin Ridge was built in 1991-2, just before another technological leap in equipment, and now its 7,000 (private) and 6,800 (Ghsot) yard courses are obsolete in terms of challenging the world's best players.  There's very little room to extend the private course, and another 300-400 yards could be squeezed into Ghost Creek.  As is, Ghost Creek would probably make a fine tournament course for the senior players, and I sincerely hope the course makes a play for the U.S. Senior Open.

That's all for now.  Michael, I hope you're not offended by us members jumping in and commenting all over the place.  And Mr. Eckstein, I'll be very impressed if you're keeping your anonymity because you play shortstop for the St. Louis Cardinals.

[Michael Dugger]

Take it easy, everyone!

Ran sent me an email asking me if I saw any problems and if I wanted to do a "formal introduction."  I just didn't have a chance to get around to it before John started this thread.

I don't see where anyone has bashed my critique, and at the end of the day we all know that it's just an opinion.  From my years spent posting on this board, one thing I've learned is we all have opinions!!!

So, don't worry about me, guys.  I felt like the time had come to contribute something to this great website which I derive so much pleasure out of.  The pictures within my reviews are my own, I greatly enjoy photographing golf courses.  

I didn't feel that what JVB had to say about Ghost Creek was really too unlike my own opinion.  He thought 10 was reachable in two, then Peter H. comes in and states the opposite.  EVERYONE has their own "take" on a golf course, I just tried to be fair and not talk too much trash about what I didn't like.  The truth is Ghost Creek is one of the best public courses in Portland.  Whether or not it is all world or worthy of the publicity it receives, I don't get too wrapped up in that kind of stuff.  

[Dan Herrmann]

I remember when Pumpkin Ridge was at the "moving dirt" phase.  Before that, there wasn't much good golf in Washington County, Ore.  That's why I used to drive 18 miles, including thru downtown Portland, to play at Riverside.

My, how times have changed.  Washington County now has PRidge, The Reserve, etc...  The days of Meriweather "National" are thankfully over

Wasn't the late hall-of-fame bowler Earl Anthony an inaguaral member of Pumpkin Ridge?


Tommy N - Thanks for mentioning Helvatia Tavern.  That was always the favorite lunch spot for the Nike guys I ran around with.  

[Josh Smith]

Thanks for writing about Pumpkin Michael.  I have fond memories of that place.  While in High School at Jesuit, driving out there to see early rounds of the first ever (now nationwide) Nike Tour Championship.  David Duval made a hole-in-one that week at the first par three on the front nine.  I have not played there in years, but the greens used to be so flawless, like John K. says.  And an ordinary chip shot had to be played with twice the run out of most courses.  Very fun to adapt your game to that style.

My best tournament senior year, cross town rival Ben "Crane delay" won with 68 and I finished second with 71 on Ghost.

Also, fondly recall driving home from family vacation in Bend early in order to see Final round of Tigers 3rd US Amateur.   The incredible comeback on Steve Scott at Witch Hollow (private 18 pumpkin ridge).  Seeing Tigers 3rd US Junior at Waverly was also an amazing come from behind playoff victory.

Dan Herrmann, while at Jesuit (91-94), we drove out to Meriwether National every day after school for nine holes.  Will never forget that place, the smell, the early pro shop and " lean-to-clubhouse" the dykes lining many holes.  But in all seriousness, something about Meriwether is just right.  No Cartpaths as I remember, zero houses, and really having the feeling of being out in nature.  As I recall almost everything was gang mowed, but for the tees and greens.  Living in the bay area now, I would kill to get that Meriwether "out in nature, very affordable, uncrowded, no cart path, walk and play golf experience."  

[JohnV]

Josh,

Great to remember Meriweather.  I was a member of the Men's Club there back about 1980-81.  Then I joined Rock Creek Country Club until 1992 when I moved on up to Pumpkin Ridge.

Meriweather National will never make anyones top 1000 list, but it was fun to play.  I know they built 9 more holes out there a few years ago to make it 27, I did the USGA Course Rating for them before they were open, but never played them.  They didn't look as interesting as the original 18.  I think some of the original holes got flooded back during one of the wetter winters when a dike broke.  Has anyone been there recently to see how it has (d)evolved?

[JohnV]

Michael, sorry I jumped the gun.  I certainly wasn't criticizing your write-up, just stating my own opinions and I thank you for doing it.  As I said above, perhaps JK can do one on Witch Hollow for us.

Pumpkin Ridge was built in 1991-2, just before another technological leap in equipment, and now its 7,000 (private) and 6,800 (Ghsot) yard courses are obsolete in terms of challenging the world's best players.  There's very little room to extend the private course, and another 300-400 yards could be squeezed into Ghost Creek.  As is, Ghost Creek would probably make a fine tournament course for the senior players, and I sincerely hope the course makes a play for the U.S. Senior Open.

If they played the Combo course that I came up with it could be about 7395 par 72.  The combination was:

Start on #1 Ghost, play 1-6, go through the fence and play 6-11 Witch, take a short walk (less than 150 yards) from 11 to 3, play 3-5 Witch, go back through the fence and finish on 7-9 on Ghost.  Play 4 and 11 Witch as par 4s at around 500 yards and you get the yardage and par above.  It could work and would be some of the better holes on the property.

But, it ain't going to happen.  The US Open will never be at Pumpkin Ridge.  They probably won't get a Senior Open either until the "Tradition" moves to its next traditional layout.  They were supposed to have it this year, but it got taken away when that "major" came to town.

Dan, Earl was a member there and John and I had many happy rounds of golf with him.  He was one of the toughest competitors I've ever seen on a golf course, I can only imagine what it must have been like to bowl against him.

One funny story about Earl was that we were playing with another guy who really didn't have an understanding about how great a bowler Earl had been.  The subject of hole-in-ones came up and after everyone had stated how many they had, this guy asked Earl if he had EVER bowled a 300 game.  With a straight face Earl answered "867 (5 second pause) in competition."

I don't have the number right, but it was some number about that order of magnitude.  The look on this other guys face was priceless.

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