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Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2006, 08:46:28 AM »
As I said, I am strictly basing my question on several of the pictures and not from any firsthand viewing.  But there does seem to be an odd, short vertical wall on the green side of several of the bunkers, and frankly, it looks kinda odd.
What gives?  Do they look that way in person as well?

Tom Paul,

Are you going to answer Andy or are you going to have him go through life thinking he's just another screeching malcontent?  ;)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2006, 09:13:33 AM »
Quote
What are you, one of those g*d*amn malcontents!?@?

Can't you see they look perfect now?  My lord, isn't there enough hair on the lips to cover the matting and shaping?  

Cool, now I've done it! I've always wanted to be a malcontent. ;)

As I said, I am strictly basing my question on several of the pictures and not from any firsthand viewing.  But there does seem to be an odd, short vertical wall on the green side of several of the bunkers, and frankly, it looks kinda odd.
What gives?  Do they look that way in person as well?

Andy

I am not sure which bunkers you mean.  Are examples:

Left side #3?
fronts #4?
left side #9?

If so, I like this kind of bowl effect.  It is unusual.  I certainly don't like the bunkers with crap growing in them.

Ciao

Sean

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2006, 10:48:52 AM »
Sean, good question.

Yes, those three are exactly the ones that jumped out at me, especially the one on #9.
I would also add #13, the righthand bunker on 14, and #15. A number of the other pictures make it very hard for me to tell if the same effect is repeated elsewhere.
I am not sure what you mean by a 'bowl effect'; balls will easily fall into the bunker on the highside, and balls will have no chance of running through because of the sheerness of the greenside wall?

What strikes me about the vertical walls is the abruptness--it seems somehow jarring and out of place. But, and it's a big but, I am only going by several pictures.

Was the effect done for playability reasons, for maintenance reasons, or for visual reasons? Tom or Mike, is what I am seeing in the pics what is actually there in person?  

PS Mike, I don't believe I screeched  ;)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 10:49:38 AM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2006, 10:51:00 AM »
Andy,

The short answer is "yes", you're not seeing things.   :o

As to your "why" question....I guess that was the architect/contractor's best impression/interpretation of "restoring" the "white faces of Merion".

Tom Paul can tell you about 2 dimensional versus 3 dimensional aspects, etc., if he's up to it....

Tom?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 10:53:25 AM by Mike Cirba »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2006, 08:31:02 AM »
Quote
As to your "why" question....I guess that was the architect/contractor's best impression/interpretation of "restoring" the "white faces of Merion".

Well, that's a fair answer.  Is it safe then to assume that Merion's bunkers used to have those vertical walls, and this was an attempt to 'put them back'?  I do note the scare quotes you put around restoring, but I am not sure if that means you question the idea of it being a restoration or something else.
Any thoughts to what time period the restoration was trying to achieve?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2006, 08:54:53 AM »
Well, that's a fair answer.  Is it safe then to assume that Merion's bunkers used to have those vertical walls, and this was an attempt to 'put them back'?  I do note the scare quotes you put around restoring, but I am not sure if that means you question the idea of it being a restoration or something else.
Any thoughts to what time period the restoration was trying to achieve?

Andy,

From historical pictures I've seen, the bunkers never previously had grassy vertical walls.  Instead, the bunkers were always very sand-flashed to the top.

According to the club, the overall restoration, which included some wonderful tree-clearing and some other nice touches (some widening of fairways) was an attempt to bring the course back to its state in 1930, the year of the Jones Grand Slam.  

My opinion is that the present bunker architecture is as much the result of the method of construction (largely machine shaped) as the intent of the club.   The present Superintendent does a really good job in making them look as rugged and natural as possible given the skeletal framework.

Also, some of them are deeper than they'd ever been, again not due to intent, but more happenstance due to construction techniques and compromises surrounding the sand build up on the front end.  

TEPaul

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2006, 10:40:54 AM »
"Tom, that whole Merion bunker fight slightly predated my time here, but looking at the pics Craig linked to, there is something odd about many of them. They seem to have about a 1' high perfectly vertical face to them--is that how they actually look in person or is it a function of the pictures and that I am having a bad contact lens day?"

Andy:

I don't know what you mean by some 1 foot high vertial wall on some of the Merion bunkers. I don't think so. Perhaps you're referring to what some architects call the "angle of repose" which is a sand upsweep angle that is sometimes considered to be Nature's strongest angle (strongest in it's ability to endure). That might be referred to as Nature's own Darwinianism. It also seems to occur with tree roots sweeping into trunks or the underside of branches.

One thing I will most certainly admit however with the present Merion East bunkers is they do not look much of anything like any of the interesting iterations of the previous Merion bunkers that evolved through the years.

Merion's original bunkers were fairly bland and generic shapes (on purpose apparently) that were allowed to grass in with some evolutionary capes and bays on some and with grass/sand lines that at one point (1930s) became quite "lacy edged". That "grassing in" process took many years and apparently became something of a Flynn bunker construction standard.

However, the basic construction and style of Merion East's bunkering was always very sand flashed faces. This is probably why they became know as "The White Faces of Merion" (Bob Jones's name for them).

Ron Prichard actually believes that the Merion bunker style became something of the basic generic style of many American bunkers. The basic idea or style was for maximum sand visibility to the golfer confronting them with his shot.

It appears this idea and perhaps style was uniquely Hugh Wilson's but I'm not sure that anyone really knows where he came up with this bunker style or idea.

We do know that Wilson had some particular ideas about the look and visibility of bunker sand to the golfer and we do know he had some specific ideas about progressive recovery from them.

For these reasons the Merion bunkers were not designed with vertical faces of sand or grass. They were more high upsweeps of sand to a rather low profile grass surround on top.

Over the years some of the green fronting bunkers (which logically get much more play) such as #8 and #13 grew substantially over the years from what we call "sand kick" or "Evolutionary Buildup". On those two examples the top surrounds grew in height as much as 4-5 feet. So, yes, those ones did become more vertical through evolution.

The present Merion bunkers were reconstructed with an earthen "roll" on the top surround and grass was sodded over that roll and stapled down over it giving the bunkers a far more "grassed over" look than they ever had before.

Interestingly all the reconstructed bunkers of Merion East came out looking much more like those two fronting bunkers on #8 and #13 with their massive evolutionary buildup and rolled over grass tops.

Before the recent bunker project I doubt Merion's bunkers had ever undergone a comprehensive construction overhaul in their history. Having had basically two supers up until the 1980s (The Valentines, father and son) Merion's bunkers over the years had simply been "fixed" in a piecemeal fashion when the need arose.

In recent years when mainteance transitioned from scythes to mechanized weedeaters the grass surrounds, particularly on top became far more clean and clipped than they had been in the 1930, 1940s and 1950 etc.

Before the recent bunker project the drainage and the sanding had basically completely failed. Sand was leaking out of the low and incoming sides and many of the top surrounds were crumbling and in need of repair.

What the old sand condtion did to playability is make all the bunkers play something like a hard packed dirt road. Good players could handle that condition much better than less good players. The hard packed lies in those old bunkers made consistent recovery for inexperienced players really tough.

But I know from experience that those old bunkers were nowhere near as difficult "architecturally" to get out of. The difficulty of them was in the sand lies not the architecture.

Now Merion has flip-flopped that----eg today they have much easier and more consistent sand lies to play from but the "architecture" of them is deeper and steeper and more difficult to recover from due to height and increased verticality of the faces (mostly the grass).

And the grass surrounds, particularly on the tops of the outgoing sides is about ten times thicker and more "Grassy" than Merion's bunkers have ever been in their history.

There's one other thing you should know I think is safe to say and that is they apparently used primarily aerial photographs in the recent bunker project. What that does is make length and width easy to duplicate but the height dimension does not show up on aerials so that is quite different from the way they ever were before.

In other words, if you looked at old aerials and compared them to an aerial of the bunkers today they would look remarkably similar (length and width) but definitely not from the ground and player's eye view---eg the height dimension.

What some of us initially recommended before the recent bunker project was that Merion simply redo the bunkers in two steps----eg redo the drainage and sanding and basically leave the old grass surrounds alone and just fix them. But they decided to do the project in three areas---drainage, sanding as well as taking all the old surrounds apart and reconstructing them.

The latter or third step is obviously what gives the present bunkers their far more grassy and "grassed over" look than anything the bunkers had ever had before.

Having said all that I actually like the look of Merion East's bunkers a lot, but, again, it is not the grass look or old very much upswept sand face look they always had before.

But, again, this one foot vertical wall you speak of---I don't know what you mean and I don't see that on course when one looks at them in person.

TEPaul

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2006, 10:55:29 AM »
Andy:

Some of those on here who complain about the way Merion's bunkers look now may be upset simply because the look of them today is not much like the look they ever had before. I think even if those people may like the look of them today they just don't like the fact that those famous Merion bunkers (The "White Faces of Merion") have had their "look" so dramatically altered by this recent bunker project.

But perhaps those who complain about the way they look today because it's different from the look they used to have should better appreciate that the "look" of the Merion bunkers was quite dramatically altered PREVIOUS to the recent bunker project at least three times over the years from the way they were originally constructed.

However, those three previous alterations in "look" before the recent bunker reconstruction project were the results of altered maintenance practices and not reconstruction.

Again, from the very beginning this present bunker "look" is about the fourth alteration in bunker "look" Merion has been through its history. However, the three previous "looks" all related to altered grassing lines and grassing looks due to altered maintenance practices and not the reconstruction of style of those old upswept sand faces.

To return the look of those old highly sand upswept faces they would have to take apart the present surrounds and start all over again. I seriously doubt Merion would consider doing something like that at this point. I know I wouldn't. It would cost too much $$$$$   ;)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 10:57:34 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2006, 10:56:39 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for your very detailed, dispassionate, objective answer, which in my mind should probably serve as the last word on this subject.  I've got nothing to add or quibble about.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2006, 11:00:41 AM »
"I've got nothing to add or quibble about.   :)

MikeC:

You have nothing more to quibble about with the Merion bunkers?

I find that hard to believe and frankly I guess I'm sorry to hear that about you.  You aren't sick are you?   ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2006, 11:19:35 AM »
"I've got nothing to add or quibble about.   :)

MikeC:

You have nothing more to quibble about with the Merion bunkers?

I find that hard to believe and frankly I guess I'm sorry to hear that about you.  You aren't sick are you?   ;)

Tom,

No, but even Hugh "Puffy" Wilson has grown tired of beating this dead horse.  What's that prayer about having the wisdom to know the difference?  ;)

I think getting on the your friend's most wanted list is about the height of my lifetime of notoriety so I'll quit while I'm ahead.    ;)

The good news is that thanks to the generosity of a good and beneficent friend you know I did get to play the course in the Pre-Upholstered era and have those memories.  I still wince a little when I look at the bunkers today, but I'm getting over it and with time and additional intensive therapy I'm sure I'll survive.  I'm also hopeful that I won't need to be institutionalized, and with Dr. Katz's help, hope springs eternal.   ;D

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2006, 11:31:22 AM »
Tom, thank you for your thoughtful response. It is helpful.
Do you think there was specific 'look' they were going for and they just missed for whatever reason, or did they get pretty close to what they were looking for?

As to what I meant by a 1' high vertical wall, as I said I am strictly basing that on some photos, so take it for what it's worth.

This was perhaps the most obvious example:



I have no idea how that bunker looks in person, or whether there is a bit of an illusion going on, but it looks from this photo that the entire far (green) side of the front/left bunker is vertical as opposed to the small portion of the lefthand side of the same bunker.

Conversely, the front right bunker here on #3 looks much different:


"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

TEPaul

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2006, 11:31:45 AM »
"I'm also hopeful that I won't need to be institutionalized, and with Dr. Katz's help, hope springs eternal.    ;D

Dr Katz??

You really are a goner if you even consider having anything to do with that looney-tune wacko quack. He represents the absolute dregs of the world of medicine as well as the very worst of humanity.

The single redeeming aspect of that troglydite is he actually thinks quite highly of the new Merion bunkers.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2006, 11:38:35 AM »
"I'm also hopeful that I won't need to be institutionalized, and with Dr. Katz's help, hope springs eternal.    ;D

Dr Katz??

You really are a goner if you even consider having anything to do with that looney-tune wacko quack. He represents the absolute dregs of the world of medicine as well as the very worst of humanity.  

The single redeeming aspect of that troglydite is he actually thinks quite highly of the new Merion bunkers.

Tom,

As an early drop-out failure (and class clown) from Katz's "48-step program", I don't think you're very qualified to judge the efficacy of his unorthodox approaches.   :P

Plus, I know from several good sources that he only told you he liked the new Merion bunkers as a test of your architectural taste to see if you'd challenge him when he threw you an obvious softball to hit out of the park.   ;)

Failing that, he did mutter something about you being the only incorrigible GCA-member he'd yet come across, but at that time, he'd yet to meet Patrick.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 11:41:08 AM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2006, 11:55:26 AM »
".....but at that time, he'd yet to meet Patrick."


Katz and Patrick!?!

Talk about the BLIND, the DEAF and the DUMB.  

If those two used their combined maximum mental capacity one really does wonder if they could even figure out how to get to the other side of the road without getting injured or killed.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2006, 01:36:28 PM »
Do you think there was specific 'look' they were going for and they just missed for whatever reason, or did they get pretty close to what they were looking for?


Andy,

I recently had dinner with my oldest friend's dad who has been a member at Merion for 49 years. He serves on no committees, pretty much just plays The West with his grandson now and had never heard of my favorite golf course National even though he is dying to play Shinnecock. Thus, he is probably a typical member who has heard, but does not really know the "White Faces of Merion."

We were talking about Winged Foot and all the shut downs they have this summer, and even the shutdowns that happened at Merion last summer for The Amateur. I actually got caught in one last summer and my round at Merion with his son was moved to The West. So I asked him, "why did Merion want to hold a US Open with the hassels involved?"

He answered "They (meaning the guys who really run Merion) really love to host tournaments." With a pending announcement from the USGA, it sounds to me like they got exactly what they wanted.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 01:37:33 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion US AM. Set Up
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2006, 03:56:06 PM »
Quote
With a pending announcement from the USGA, it sounds to me like they got exactly what they wanted.

Mike, well, when all is said and done, that seems to me to be what really matters.  
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

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