Screwy Bounces at Sandwich

[Sean_A]

I just read a post on the Jack and Screwy Bounces thread.  The poster used Sandwich as an example of screwy bounces and said he enjoyed the Open, but implied that it produced a goofy winner in Ben Curtis.  I wonder how long it will take for this sort of thinking to be eradicated?  That Open had a very good leaderboard.  Within 7 shots were

Thomas Bjorn
Vijay
Davis Love
Tiger
Faldo
Sergio
Retief

Anyone of the top four names on this list could have won on Sunday.  Greg Norman and Tom Watson weren't that much further back.  Sandwich produced a deserving champion who played better than everybody else.  The course in no way could be blamed or credited with Curtis' success.  Bounces are not good or bad, they just are.  In fact, almost every bounce is reasonable, logical and predictable.    

Ciao

[Ed Tilley]

The last two Opens at RSG have produced the finest leaderboards of any in the last 20 years. If Thomas Bjorn had not mentally capitulated on 16 everyone would be saying what a wonderful tournament it was. The implication of joke course / joke winner is ridiculous.

I think Tiger said it best about RSG. He said that there were a few really bumpy areas on a few fairways but that he treated them as hazards and either played short of them or over them. If you smack driver without thinking you could be in trouble but if you think your way around then you will be fine. Tiger pursued a very similar strategy at Hoylake this year and he's a genius. RSG seems to get a very bad press and I can't understand why. I thought it was a magnificent course when I played it.

[Chris Kane]

I think Tiger said it best about RSG. He said that there were a few really bumpy areas on a few fairways but that he treated them as hazards and either played short of them or over them. If you smack driver without thinking you could be in trouble but if you think your way around then you will be fine.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but he's absolutely right.

[Mark Chaplin]

I am fortunate to have played a lot of golf at RStG and have to say Tiger is completely right. Too many people want fairways and greens to be runway flat and everything totally fair.

I remember hitting many a good shot at Sandwich and getting a rude bounce into trouble, just as I've hit a dog of a shot heading for a serious bunker that bounced it's way out of trouble. As a youngster I realised this was character building.

IMO courses with superb design will usually sort out the finest champions without "assistance" from the authorities.

[James Edwards]

With regards to Sandwich, the course was "Routed" not "Designed"...

...which makes Sandwich and other such links courses so memorable and fun to play.  Natural undulation with minor earthworks around the greens... Perfect!

I have played my golf at Sandwich for the past 15 years and the golf course is majestic!  Come and visit me, lets go play and tell me it isnt a superb mix of shot making with interest, strategy, scenery and most importantly a ickle bit of (G.forbid) quirk !! - what i believe IMHO, constitutes Real Golf..

[Noel Freeman]

I just read a post on the Jack and Screwy Bounces thread.  The poster used Sandwich as an example of screwy bounces and said he enjoyed the Open, but implied that it produced a goofy winner in Ben Curtis.  I wonder how long it will take for this sort of thinking to be eradicated?  That Open had a very good leaderboard.  Within 7 shots were

Thomas Bjorn
Vijay
Davis Love
Tiger
Faldo
Sergio
Retief

Anyone of the top four names on this list could have won on Sunday.  Greg Norman and Tom Watson weren't that much further back.  Sandwich produced a deserving champion who played better than everybody else.  The course in no way could be blamed or credited with Curtis' success.  Bounces are not good or bad, they just are.  In fact, almost every bounce is reasonable, logical and predictable.    

Ciao

This is the exact reason why Deal is the superior course in my opinion.

[Bill_McBride]

Noel, what is "the exact reason?"

[Noel Freeman]

Deal is a fairer test yet retains quirky elements.. All links golf obviously contains an element of capricious bounces but I feel that Deal allows a higher degree of control then what you see at Sandwich-- there is less chance of a well struck shot getting penalized.. I'm talking about Championship Golf here instead of laymen's golf.. No matter, Deal is the harder course in any event...

[Phil Benedict]

Sean,

That was my post you were referring to.  The comment about Ben Curtis was gratuitous.

I think the unpredictable nature of the course got into the players' heads at Sandwich.  That's what I liked about that Open.  None of the top players made a move on Sunday because the course put them on the defensive.  At least that's the way it looked to me on TV.  Sandwich didn't need an over-the-top Carnoustie like set up to challenge the top players.  In my opinion it was a better venue than Oak Hill for the PGA, which was all about tight landing areas and high rough.  Oak Hill also produced a surprise winner.

[Noel Freeman]

Sean-

It is all in the terrain and the tie ins before greens in my opinion if one plays classical bump and run golf. I assure you that if you compare Perranporth to say Lytham one would say Lytham is the fairer test.  I realize that when played upon a course, the venue is the same for all players and the rub of the green is part of the game.  That said, some landscapes golf is played over are more finicky than others and will allow more rub of the green to litter the playing surface.  Having played Sandwich and Deal a fair amount of times and played many different shots that is my opinion.

[JESII]

Noel,

Is it these "capricious bounces" that make Deal more difficult than Sandwich, in your opinion?

I played those two in 1997 during the medal play portion of the Amateur and felt Sandwich was significantly more difficult although I cannot really say (read: remember) why.

It may have been an intimidation of playing a current Open rota course as opposed to a course I had not heard of prior to filing my application. It may have been that the wind blew significantly stronger at RSG, although it was a serious factor at RCP as well. #11 at RSG was a driver and #14 was a 2 iron / knock down 6 iron, while #5 was a full blooded drive and hooking running 3 iron. Cannot recall the individual holes at Deal as well, but I remember trying not to drive over the green on the hole that started against the dune wall and went straight away with a bit of a turn to the right. How long is that hole?

Point is, my experiences were limited and not exactly apples to apples but my opinion would have been 180 degrees from yours as to their relative difficulty.

[Noel Freeman]

JES II-

I think you might have got tricked into thinking Sandwich is harder, but not being a scratch golfer and obviously not having seen the conditions, I can't get inside your mind.  That said, Deal is a much stouter course even now than 10 years hence.  Let me summarize my views:

I think Deal is a fairer test regarding oblique and odd bounces given the terrain.  Deal does not have the giant sand hills that Sandwich has which gives it more area to deflect the orb.

Deal is a more difficult course in the summer southwesterly paradoxically b/c the beat back home is very long into the wind given the out and back routing.  The stretch from 12-18 offers no respite (maybe 17) especially if #16 plays as a par 4. Now, taking the routing into account, one may deem Sandwich the better test given that it exposes the protaganist to winds from all directions (akin to Shinnecock or Muirfield).

I believe Deal has a better set of greens than Sandwich.  Now I have no disrespect for RSG at all--it is a regal and noble course-- I just think putting at Deal involves more contouring and artistry which lends to the difficulty.

Being an overseas member I've obviously only played about 35+ rounds at Deal but from what the locals tell me in competitions, the course plays 2 to 2.5 strokes harder than Sandwich.  Our professional, Andrew Reynolds has told me the same and he should know, he tied for 22nd I believe at this years Senior Open, has been at Deal for 25+ years and was the county coach for Kent.

The hole I think you speak of is the all world par 4 6th at about 330 yards with a sand hill blocking the green.  Downwind you can go for it but it can spell disaster given the precarious nature of the green.. Here are some pics Ran took:

[JESII]

Thanks Noel, and I have no reason to doubt your first 12 words....thanks for the pictures, I though it was late in the first nine.

[Noel Freeman]

I think it has to be #6 b/c the opening 9 is the seaside nine for one.. Also 7 bends left a tad, 8 a par 3 surrounded by sand and 9 is a dogleg left..

[JESII]

I do not remember the green being that much above the approach, but I was on my fourth nine of an 85-81 virgin attempt at competitive links golf, so my mind was a bit clouded.

Your comments (along with others, but I believe their's are mostly swayed by your's) make Deal a must revisit.

[Noel Freeman]

JES

My friend Tuco Ramirez is planning to someday do a Tuco Fest event at Deal.. It was going to be this year and to be blessed with Golf's Most Beloved Figure (Ran) as well as Wall Street's most beloved bond salesman(myself) but then Mr. Morrissett got involved in a little project up in Cape Breton.. So I'm not sure when Tuco Fest will happen but I know Sean Arble is planning to attend.. I think it will be a Deal/Sandwich event..

[Noel Freeman]

Sean-

Just remember: Don't double cross Tuco



I'm hoping to be over in Jan/Feb.. Have a baby due in May so will be out of service part of summer.. And hope to return in Sept/Oct which is the best time to play Deal.

Want to go to Hayling?

[Tommy Williamsen]

This is number six at Royal North Devon.  There isn't much choice but to role the dice and see what comes up.  It is one of the more fun holes on the course.
 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Here is Michael Miller's painting of the same hole that appears on the Art and Architechture par of the web site.

[henrye]

No matter, Deal is the harder course in any event...

but from what the locals tell me in competitions, the course plays 2 to 2.5 strokes harder than Sandwich.  Our professional, Andrew Reynolds has told me the same and he should know, he tied for 22nd I believe at this years Senior Open, has been at Deal for 25+ years and was the county coach for Kent.

Noel, you said this before, and I just don't buy it.  Almost anyone I have talked to thinks the opposite.

Sandwich ss74, Deal ss73.

[Adam Clayman]

Noel, There are no screwy bounces. Just screwy people!

I wonder if there's a variable within our DNA chains that can explain why some prefer rote predictable canvas'.

Pagng Dr. Childs

[Noel Freeman]

No matter, Deal is the harder course in any event...

but from what the locals tell me in competitions, the course plays 2 to 2.5 strokes harder than Sandwich.  Our professional, Andrew Reynolds has told me the same and he should know, he tied for 22nd I believe at this years Senior Open, has been at Deal for 25+ years and was the county coach for Kent.

Noel, you said this before, and I just don't buy it.  Almost anyone I have talked to thinks the opposite.

Sandwich ss74, Deal ss73.

The SSS means nothing to me, it doesnt measure tournament setups nor do I think it an accurate representation.. In the US the course rating for Bethpage is a good 3 strokes higher than my home club yet in tournament play I'd bet it would be much higher.. It doesnt tell me anything or a story even if Deal is one shot easier on that metric..

I don't know the people you are talking to, but I'll take the words of Deal Historian David Dobby who has played both for 40 years, and Andrew Reynolds who is one of the great pros (club) in England.