Redan,Eden, Short, Biarritz

[Glenn Spencer]

How many is too many 'copy' holes. Camargo has all four of these, plus a Cape and maybe a few others. Does this course 'lead the league' in 'copy' holes? What are some others that feature a bunch? Do the number of 'copy' holes have anything to do with how well a course is rated or thought of?

[Phil Benedict]

Yale and Fox Chapel have the copycat par 3's, a Cape, and an Alps.  The Short and Biarritz are pretty similar but the Fox Chapel Redan has a left-to-right slope rather than the right-to-left slope a la the original.  Fox Chapel's Eden is visually striking with stair step bunkers.  The Fox Chapel Alps is a drivable par 4 with a mound in front of the green, not at all like the 12th at Yale.  Every hole on both courses has a name but not all of the holes are replicas.

These style holes are so cool I could never get tired of them.

[PThomas]

Glenn -- all I know is I hear that Camargo is really cool....I hope to play it later this year and find out myself!

[Glenn Spencer]

Paul T,

You won't be disappointed, that is for sure. I like the place a lot, I am just wondering if there are any other gems that have at 5 or more copy holes.

[david h. carroll]

Just about every Raynor and Banks employ the template hole design with these....perform a search here or look for other discussion on this in the Courses By Architect section

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not sure there can be too many of that combination of par 3's. They are a great blend. Plus no two are alike.

[Phil Benedict]

I played Whippoorwill (Banks) for years w/o knowing anything about the architectural lineage in the par 3's.  I thought they were a really good set of par 3's but was unaware of what they represented.  Now I know 5 is the short; 8 is the Biarritz; 11 is the Redan; and 17 is the Eden.  The knowledge doesn't make them better holes but it adds a little bit to my enjoyment.  

[Tom_Doak]

Glenn:  There must be at least thirty other courses which have the full set of four par-3's, plus some other template holes.  Chicago Golf (7,13,10,3) and Shoreacres (14,8,12,6) for starters.

[Tom Roewer]

Glenn:   Mountain Lake has the full compliment of par 3's ( including the one decidely downhill redan that i know of) and also the punchbowl there is cut to green length to the crest, two different twists on a theme.

[TEPaul]

"Does this course 'lead the league' in 'copy' holes? What are some others that feature a bunch?"

My old home course, Piping Rock, appears to have seven "copy" holes but some of them don't look very similar to the originals---just "copies" in concept I guess.

[Glenn Spencer]

TEPaul, 7 is quite a few. I would think that they would count for this discussion. I was counting 13 at Camargo as a Cape Hole and there is no water.


Is water or another type of hazard a prerequisite for a Cape Hole?


Tom D,

Wow, I had no idea, 30 of them. When were most of them built? Do most of the 30 fall into Camargo and Shoreacres' ilk?

Tom R,

That reminds me, Camargo also has the punchbowl green #7. That makes for at least 6 holes. I am really interested to hear what is considered too many. I know 18 is, what is from 5-17 though.

[Doug Sobieski]

Glenn:   Mountain Lake has the full compliment of par 3's ( including the one decidely downhill redan that i know of) and also the punchbowl there is cut to green length to the crest, two different twists on a theme.

In addition, Mountain Lake also has a Double Plateau and a Road off the top of my head. So that's at least 7 that I can recall.

[Tom Roewer]

Doug   so true. ML also has  ALPS and the #8   RAYNOR  how appropriate

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