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John_Cullum

  • Total Karma: -1
Dead and forgotten
« on: April 13, 2006, 11:58:34 AM »
Bob Crosby asked me on another thread yesterday about Les Hall, of whom he had never heard. Les Hall was the greenskeeper at Savannah Golf Club for about forty years. I never knew Mr. Hall, I just know of him through older members at Savannah Golf Club. The older members give Les Hall the credit for Savannah Golf Club, although clearly Ross did the routing and specs. The "Ross" course was built around 1926.

Les Hall did a few other courses in the South over his lifetime. He is credited with Bainbridge CC in Bainbridge GA and North August GC in South Carolina. Bainbridge I believe predates today's Savannah Golf Club, and North Augusta was built around the time he left SGC. I have heard he built Mary Calder GC in Savannah and that would make sense, since he was probably the only guy in town that had any experience at Golf Course design and construction. I would expect he did a few others that may or may not exist any longer.

I would describe Les as sort of a rennaisance man (no offense Mr. Doak). Savannah Golf Club was one of the earlier courses to have grass greens in the south, going back to 1926 or 1927. Mr. Hall began experimenting with golf course grasses and he developed a strain of grass, I believe to have been bermuda type. His grass, which some of us called Les Hall Monkey Grass" was very hardy and deep green. It grew on runnners with the somewhat broad leaf laynig out flat. It looked sort of like  a very small centipede or St Augustine, except it laid very flat and was darker green than most bermudas. It had no yellow to it like Centipede or St Augustine. A ball rolled on it pretty well, but it was grainy. In the "post WWII" era, SGC was known as one of the finest conditioned courses in the southeast. Touring players often came through for a good money game; SGC has always been quite the wagering club.

Savannah Golf Club tried to eradicate Les' grass in the 80's, but they tried to save a buck and didn't gas the small practice putting green by the pro shop. Within a couple of years the first tee had a substantial population of monkey grass. And then we started to see it on the first and then the second green. It seemed like the seed would get on the players shoes and make its way slowly around the course, and they wound up having to do a second eradication.

Les was also quite knowledgeable about soils and drainage. In 1962 or so, the SGC decided to cut a deal with the local school board so thay could build a new clubhouse. The club orchestrated the condemnation of the 1st, 17th and 18th holes and the clubhouse for a new school. They then purchased some low lying land adjacent to the club to the northwest. It was an old "pre-war" landfill. I have a copy of a letter Les wrote to Hobart Manley, a great amateur player who was a member. He warned that the landfill site would be disastrous for a golf course, and would forever settle and be a drainage problem. He wanted to document his advice, and he knew Hobart was sympathetic to him and trusted his advice. (I got the letter from Hobart). Of course the big engineering firm in town disagreed and Les "moved on." SGC has had to rebuild those 3 new holes at least 3 times since. The last time it costs 3 million dollars, and its collapsing again.

He must have been a very interesting man, the kind Tom Paul would spend hours talking to. I wish I knew more about him, and I'll make it a point to make some inquiry the next time I see one of the old members who I believe knew him.

There must have been quite a few guys like this in the first half of the twentieth century. I find it interesting how a love for the game of golf and its courses makes us reflect on things and men like Les Hall. Maybe with this thread he won't go totally forgotten.

Does anyone know of anyone else who is long gone but deserves to be remembered?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:14:57 PM by John Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tony_Muldoon

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 12:43:16 PM »
The pair that I'm most curious about are the Stutt's, father and son.  The Father had a long association with Braid who normally used their construction firm.  One of them (according to Rich Goodale's interview on GCA) constructed the 6th green at Royal Dornoch.  Cornish and Whitten credit the father as being the architect of several courses.

And that’s all I know.  Yet they were heavily involved in golf right through the golden age.  Anyone know where I can find out more?
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2006, 12:48:30 PM »
John -

Thanks for the post. Interesting.

Hugh Moore seemed to have a somewhat similar career arch, but I know much less about him.

In contrast to other parts of the US, it is notable that even the best clubs in the SE tried to do architecture with non-professional locals. At least until recently. Part of the reason may have been that there weren't architects based in the SE at the time (other than Ross, but he would have been too busy and too expensive), which was probably a function of tighter budgets than in other parts of the country.

Athens CC and Gulph Mills make an interesting study in contrasts. Both were designed by Ross. When revisions were needed at GM, they brought in Perry Maxwell and Robert Trent Jones. When revisions were needed at ACC (a relatively high end club in the region), they used local non-professionals Hugh Moore and Jimmie Dudley and a couple of green committee chairmen.  

I'll toast Les tonight. He should be remembered.

Bob

« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 01:53:50 PM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2006, 04:33:17 PM »
"Does anyone know of anyone else who is long gone but deserves to be remembered?"

Although it's not all that easy to prove I would certainly think George Crump's "assistant" Jim Govan would be someone who deserves to be remembered, and certainly considering we're talking about PVGC the #1 course in the world.

James Govan arrived in America from St Andrews in 1899. He first went to Shinnecock (Shinnecock back then seemed to have been somewhat of a clearinghouse of Scottish immigrant pro/greenkeeper/architect/clubmakers). Rather shortly thereafter (maybe 1901) Govan ended up at St Davids G.C in Philadelphia where he served apparently rather famously as the club's pro/teacher/clubmaker/greenkeeper. Jim Govan was an excellent player and an even more excellent clubmaker (He worked for the famous Forgan Bros in Scotland---eg perhaps the best clubmakers in the world back then).

During Jim Govan's time at St Davids---probably something just over a dozen years he got to know a young man at St Davids who was likely the club's best player---a man who around 1910-1912 would have a dream about building a great golf course to make the competitors around Philadelphia better competitors on the regional and national scene. This was George Crump.

About nine months after beginning to clear Pine Valley to look at it Crump hired Jim Govan in November 1913 to be the pro/teacher/clubmaker/greenkeeper of PVGC where he remained for about 30 years.

But James Govan was more than that. He was the construction foreman at PVGC for about eight years until the course was finally finished.

For at least 2-3 years there were only two people who actually lived at PVGC---George Crump alone on the pond below the fifth tee in his little bungalow and James Govan and his family who lived just to the right of the 2nd hole.

It is important to know not just that Jim Govan was at Crump's side designing and building the golf course every day for the remaining four years of Crump's life, and for about three years after that, but also it's very important to know exactly how they both went about it. It's documentable that Crump and Govan had at least one interesting modus operandi for how to design and build the course, particularly the bunkering. Both of them were inveterate "shot testers" and they both were good players so obviously they were good at it, liked doing it that way and apparently did a whole lot of it.

The routing was fairly complete but not totally during those years Govan worked by Crump's side every day designing and placing and building the features of the golf course, not to a drawn plan exactly but from constant "shot-testing".

If someone is that close to the person who owned and built the golf course shot-testing and visualizing things on hole after hole, day after day, for four solid years it's pretty obvious to me that pretty much would have to be central to things to do with the creation of the golf course.

As a for instance, Jim Govan's son George Govan who lived with his family during that duraton (and followed his father as PVGC's pro/clubmaker) said rather matter of factly in an interview in 1990 that the 14th hole at PV was his father's idea.  

In my opinion, James Govan should probably be better remembered for what he apparently did and was at Pine Valley which was the constant foreman who oversaw how the golf course was built.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 05:06:28 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2006, 05:40:25 PM »
You gotta love GCA.

Great stuff Tom.

Two new names in one day. Les Hall and Jim Govan.

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2006, 06:35:08 PM »
It's great that guys like John "Sarge" Cullum and Tom Paul take time to share this fascinating historical information.  Like you, Bob, that's what I enjoy most about GCA.

TEPaul

Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2006, 07:06:54 PM »
You two guys have never even heard of PVGC's James Govan?

Well, I'll be damned. If two people like you have never heard of him then he most assuredly is way too forgotten and he most assuredly does need to be remembered.

Peter Sayegh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2006, 08:14:42 PM »
A long-time lurker and golfer.

This is what attracted me most (and the pictures) to this site.

Its global reach, its wealth of stories.

Makes me want to golf more...travel more...read more!

Thanks to Ran and all you guys for sharing! :) :) :)

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2006, 08:17:00 PM »
How about George Coombe-the man who can claim the biggest chunk of the real #1 course in the world:  Royal County Down.  

He must spin every time Old Tom gets the credit.

(And none of you lot have heard of him ;))
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 08:42:45 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Dead and forgotten
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2006, 08:25:19 PM »
I know that most around here know of Eddie Hackett, but the guy can at least be indirectly credited for bringing some of the Celtic Tiger to the people of Western Ireland, and he built some nice courses too!

http://www.irishgolf.com/king.html