A Question of Fringe...

[Phil_the_Author]

I had an interesting discussion with an architect the other day who is in the process of renovating a very well-known course with the idea of bringing it back to its original design.

I asked him if he was going to eliminate the green fringes as there were none when this course was first built. He was very receptive to the idea but wondered about how it would be accepted by the membership.

My question then is this, what purpose do fringe areas surrounding greens serve? Why should we keep creating them as part of the design & maintenance process?

[JohnV]

I've seen a couple of courses that didn't have a fringe cut.  To me it depends on how high you are going to keep the grass next to the green.  If you have 2 or 3 inches of rough, it doesn't seem right for a player who has a ball on the putting green and have that directly behind the ball.

They probably also didn't have the long rough right off the green in the days when the course was built so if you were doing away with fringe don't forget to do away with the thick rough.

[Scott Witter]

Philip:

Would it not make a difference depending on the era/period of the golf course?  I know that even in history there were many courses that maintained a fringe.  I think the architect gave you a protected response and perhaps it was wise of him to do so, but then again, you did say the course was being renovated and not restored....however, I am left a bit confused because you also said "with the idea of bringing it back to its original design"

It the course worthy with classic featuring to be preserved and restored, or should it be renovated?  I'm not trying to open up a can of worms, but it seems this first needs to be answered (I'm sure the architect has considered this closely) and then you can weigh the impacts, good or bad, depending on who's opinion you seek, if keeping or removing the fringes is a good approach to take.

Good luck!

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

It does give the green mowers a place to turn around as trampling shorter grass doesn't affect playability. The also serve to allow for some slope integration with the green cut since the raised height can be mowed on steeper or more severe slopes.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Arcadia Bluffs in Michigan doesn't have collars.
  I think that collars also keep the rough grass (poa, bluegrass, bermuda 419) from creeping on to the green surface because of the lower mowing heights and the frequency of mowing. One would see alot of scalping of the rough grass from the greens mowers if there wasn't a collar.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Troy Alderson]

When I see a golf course in the old world, I see a greens cut, tee cut and fairway cut, no fringe, no roughs.  The roughs are the deep deep deep areas that are technically out of play.  The reason the great old courses are still great is that they give the golfer multiple oportunities to play the hole and save par.  But, get in a hazard and kiss par goodbye.  

The old ANGC was great before they started the "rough" cut that is still taller than most golf course fairways.  Keep the fringe out I say, keep it out.

Troy

[Phil_the_Author]

Scott,

I used the word "renovated" because it will be lengthened by several hundred yards and some fairway bunkers moved to accomodate a championship.

They want to get the greens and surrounds back to the original design specs wherever possible.

I know, it's driving some a little nutty as to what course it is. I decided not to say as yet because it is a question of principle not of location, and what parameters might be considered for answers given.

[Jim Johnson]

Philip,

Just a stupid observation on my part, but I wonder if a fringe is placed to surround a green with the thought that if the green is built to provide surface drainage (i.e. sloping off to several sides), and the green is cut at a low height (i.e. 12 on the "Stimpmeter"), and there is no "fringe", but just the green itself surrounded by 3-inch high rough... if a ball rolls toward the edge of the green and picks up the outward slope of the green and rolls to its edge, the ball then is resting up against 3-inch high (or whatever height) rough, thus making for a somewhat difficult (?) putt, as John has stated.

Perhaps this is one reason for "fringe"?

JJ

[Scott Witter]

Philip:

What is a championship?  Why does a golf course NEED to be lengthened in order for it to be qualified worthy to hold a 'championship'...sorry, but I just can't resist.  Is not a championship simply another tournament and therefore, can't a tournament be held at any facility no matter what length?...you either win it at whatever length and challenge that awaits, or you don't.  If you win the event, are you not the CHAMPION?

If this club really wants to talk about a championship and what that all means, then the members need to consider many more components far beyond the actual playing area, but then it doesn't sound like the they really understand what it means to say championship and also accept the other associated costs that would go with it.

"they want to get the greens and surrounds back to the original design specs wherever possible"    "and some fairway bunkers moved to accomodate a championship."   It seems these two statements/positions contradict themselves...maybe the greens/planning committee just need to pull a bit harder on the puppet strings to get what they really want?

No offense, but on the surface it smells a bit fishy.  I am not trying to stir things up rather just dig around in the rubble a bit to see if any good stuff remains.

cheers

[Phil_the_Author]

Scott,

I am being needlessly circumspect. I apologize, it's just that we tend to get so site specific on here rather than talking about the issue(s) raised in general. In this case, the discussion has led me to ask WHY we need fringes around greens. What is the real purpose that they serve.

JJ stated, "the green is cut at a low height (i.e. 12 on the "Stimpmeter"), and there is no "fringe", but just the green itself surrounded by 3-inch high rough... if a ball rolls toward the edge of the green and picks up the outward slope of the green and rolls to its edge, the ball then is resting up against 3-inch high (or whatever height) rough, thus making for a somewhat difficult (?) putt..."

At first glance this appears reasonable, yet frankly, any shot that ends up on the spot where green ends and fringe begins has a better chance at having been a poor shot than one well struck. Shouldn't poorer shots be penalized, and if so, at what point should the penalty begin? Is it at the place where the green ends or further away, and if so, how far away?

For me this is not a simple question.

For the curious, the course that I am refering to is Five Farms. No Scott, they have already been awarded the Champion's Tour Tour Championship starting in 2007. That is why I used the word Championship & not tournament.

The moving of bunkers is for the specific purpose of preserving the original angles of play as Tilly designed. IT will force the players to decide risk/reward based upon angle of play and not whether they can simply hit it over a bunker or not.

I have seen Keith Foster's master plan and spoken with him (& many of those at the club) and feel that they want both a fair but tough challenge and done so with an appreciation for Tilly's design concepts.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Philip Young,

I think fringes might be a concession to fairness and/or maintainance equipment.

His concern about the membership's reaction is valid.
I would guess that it would depend upon the culture of the club and the degree of their sincerity to restore the golf course to its original configuration.

[Scott Witter]

Philip:

No apologies required, but as you could probably tell, I suspected as much and respectfully stayed away from specifics for just the reason you noted.

I like your thoughtful curiosity into the fringes and it does beg some additional thoughts.  At the moment I don't have a definite position as to the "need or purpose" fringes serve, for I don't have a firm enough experience and history on their evolution, but as with all golf features, the bold and the subtle ones, such as this, they do make me think and that is good.  For me I appreciate both worlds where the surrounds to the green are very tight with deep rough and fringes only one mower pass away from the putting surface and I also completely enjoy the approach that some of the newer facilities have taken with shaved closely mowed grass slopes all around the putting surfaces with countless options of where a good and bad shot could come to rest.

So, in all this where do the fringes find a home that we can understand and accept as part of the game. I think it comes down to each and everyone of us and our personal tastes and also what the golfers want and or will accept on any given experience.  Clearly, none of us can argue with the classics that have fringes and deep rough crowding the green and why we love them so much and obviously, the return if you will, of the "no rough" around the greens is very popular by those who enjoy this site too as well as those golfers who just love options.

Thanks for a better description to the changes in bunkering.  If you are involved with the process...have fun, it sounds like you already are!