[Jeff Goldman]

Folks,

I am being caddy to my significant other's spa vacation this weekend at La Quinta in Palm Springs.  I believe I will be able to get away for 2 rounds (they may well be included in the package she sprung on me yesterday).  Based upon what I have been able to glean from prior discussions, it appears that the Mountain course, followed by the stadium course are the no-brainers.  Is there any reason to substitute the Nicklaus tournament course or the Norman course?  I'm interested in seeing the most interesting courses rather than playing the course best suited to my presently abominable game.   Thanks!

                            Jeff Goldman

[Lynn_Shackelford]

The Stadium course at PGA West is a must. After that it drops big time.  Play what fits into your schedule or what you can get on.  All the courses at Mission Hills are pretty good.  The privates, Plantation and The Palms are good but difficult to access.  I was disappointed in the Mountain course the last time I played it.  The wow factor from the 1980's was not there.  Good time to go, many course should be opening from overseeding.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Lynn is right, on many accounts.

TPC is the first choice, absolutely.

I quite enjoy the Mountain course and would put it second.

Avoid Norman, Nicklaus is classic 80's, worth seeing if you like that.

Lots of great private golf in La Quinta, if you can swing that.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

For what it's worth --

1.PGA West / Stadium
2.The Mountain Course at La Quinta

*If you can get a connection keep The Quarry at La Quinta
on the radar screen.

If you're looking for a public course option that keeps some $$ in your pocket try:

Desert Willow (Fire Cliff) designed by Hurdan & Fry w John Cook assisting
Shadow Ridge / designed by Nick Faldo and part of Marriott
Both of the above are located in Palm Desert.

Desert Dunes (RTJ, Jr. design), just bring ropes to keep you near the ground as the course is especially WINDY.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Judging from last year, I think you might want to call and find out about PGA West Stadium.

I was there last year on Thanksgiving weekend and it was still closed as they wanted the course PERFECT no matter how long it took ( I was quite surprized by this attitude in the market which it exists.) I still managed to drive around the course shwoing Adam Clayman and my cousin who can vouch for me on just how perfect of condition it was in. It had never looked better.

-La Quinta Mountain is still worth the effort, but just like Lynn says, not nearly as impressive as it was in the 80's.

-As you drive by the Norman Course, count you blessings that you didn't waste a single dime of your money there. A TOTAL waste.

-Don't bother with Quarry of LQ as it will be impossible to get a time there in less you know somebody who is a member at Big Canyon.

-The Palms is pretty fun if you can get a time. They should be done with overseeding.

-By all means go and enjoy Skins North and Skins South at  Landmark Golf Club. Each nine is distinctively different, and it works. (Curley & Schmidt) My favorte being the Skins-North front nine.

-See if CC of the Desert has opened both courses and let us know.

Have a great time!

(And don't forget to grab a date shake!)

[Jeff Goldman]

Thanks everyone.  It happens that she who arranged the trip has already booked my on the stadium course and the mountain course (she knows how much I love blackwolf run I guess).  We have it all worked out - she arranged the thing and I pay for it, which is ok by me so long as I get on the courses.  Ben, thanks for you input once again, its always appreciated.  Matt, I have no connections besides the telephone (which is why I generally prefer to travel to the older classic (public) stuff when I travel - PB and Banff/Jasper in the last year).  Tommy, I'll try to zoom by CC of the Desert and take a look and let you know.  Again, thanks for the input.  

                           Jeff Goldman

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,
Good to hear that the Stadium Course will be open. It is a modern favorite.

However, with everything else, please remember that it takes about a zero IQ to really enjoy the rest of them.

[A_Clay_Man]

Jeff, You said you wanted interesting and noone mentioned it but it is worthy for a look see. Cimmaron, has some wonderful Mackenziesque bunkering. It even has a Hell bunker on one of the par 5's. They even have a par 3 course which Tommy says is a hoot to have a match on. C'mon. I know there'll be a chance for a quick third 18  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I thought the Mountain was ok to good golf in general and maybe great golf for Palm Springs. I still find it hard to believe how many average courses have been built in the land of unlimited money. I do like the resort alot.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I cut my teeth playing muni golf and the layout the town of Palm Desert has (36 total holes) at Desert Willow is very good for what it tries to be.

Hurdzan & Fry did very well with the Fire Cliff 18 although there are some who believe the course overdoses on the bunker aspect. I don't buy that one bit. The other 18 is simply a complete letdown from what the first course accomplished -- it's almost as if the architect duo had their hand forced to tone it down.

One of the best things about Desert Willow is that it won't cost you a second mortgage to play and the layout has a number of first rate holeswith options to boot.

However, given your limited time and freedom   playing the Stadium at PGA West and the Mountain at La Quinta is as solid as you can get when in the Springs.

[Matt_Cohn]

I might have a reputation by now for backing 2 courses in the area: the Stadium Course, and Landmark. You'll go well with the Mountain Course. But even if it's too late, I must give Landmark a really strong recommendation. It's also a lot less expensive than the other two - and you can tell your buddies you played where they have the Skins Game, yay! But that's the least of the reasons to go there.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

The Stadium Course is terrific and the Mountain is very good.  You will be quite happy.  If you have a way to get onto the Palms, it is in the best 5 desert courses I have ever played.

Do not even go near the Norman Course.  To borrow and slightly change a quote from Billy Madison "Everyone on the property is now dumber for having played it".

[redanman]

The Stadium Course is a must see for anyone with anything approaching an open mind.  It is probably hte most underrated modern course as regards the GolfWeek top 100 modern list.  Even with all the terra cotta tiles in view, the architecture is just spectacular.

Overbuilding has hurt the La Quinta Mountain course, but it would be my second choice as there are some great minimalist holes out there and creative land use.  You just have to block out some houses especially on the back nine.

As part of an early survey team from this group, I was exposed to the Norman course and found the Norman course awe-inspiring.  In a negative way.  Considering some of the work by this design group, this course is a real head scratcher regarding just how inconsistent and overdone it is.  It didn't stop me from playing very well especially the second nine, but it was just one of the most senseless architectural escapades I have ever seen.  The positive is that because it is so bad, there may be an opportunity for a quick round!  

[David Wigler]

Redanman,

That you for your insights on the Norman Course.  I have never been able to articulate how bad it is.  You did wonderfully.  One of these days, I will try to create a bottom 100 list, just for giggles.  Assuming that the minimum criterion is a real budget and real design crew (As opposed to a no money muni with no real aspirations) I suspect that the Norman Course will battle The Bear for the top spot.

[Jeff Goldman]

David Wigler and Redanman,

If the Norman course is that bad, I'll probably look around it to see (my experience is quite limited though expanding, and seeing something amazingly rotten would be educational).  A few years ago I was in Palm Springs after the Rose Bowl where we clobbered Cade McNown (We sat with a bunch of UCLA folks who were terrific) and went to the Hyatt Grand Champions - mediocre resort golf, but a great place to stay.  That was the year of the huge New Year's blizzard in the midwest (and the badger team was stranded but Hugh Hefner invited the entire team to the mansion).  A_Clay_Man, If I can find a 5-hour spa treatment maybe I can get in a third 18.

Here's a real question:  Is the topography of Palm Springs similar to las vegas, and does that account for the generally mediocre golf in both places, whereas in Arizona you at least can use the mountains to some good effect?  Does the "resort/retiree" nature of golfers in Palm Springs also hurt?

[David Wigler]

Here's a real question:  Is the topography of Palm Springs similar to las vegas, and does that account for the generally mediocre golf in both places, whereas in Arizona you at least can use the mountains to some good effect?  Does the "resort/retiree" nature of golfers in Palm Springs also hurt?

Jeff,

The topography is similar but I could not disagree more with your statement.  I think the golf in Vegas is far better than the golf in Arizona and Palm Springs is every bit as good as Arizona.  Shadow Creek is a consensus top 20 course in the country and deserving of its place.  Southshore is a top 50 modern in Golfweek and deserving of its place.  Southern Highlands and Reflections Bay both have some warts but I do not think GW would have to apologize if either found its way into a top 100 list.  Shadow and SouthShore are both superior to anything I have played in Arizona and Southern Highlands is comparable.  Have you played any of those three?

As for Palm Springs, The Palms is simply terrific.  It will be interesting to see if it finds it way into top 100 lists once it is old enough to qualify.  I will be shocked if it does not.  Stadium may be the defining course of its era.  It is an architectural marvel and a phenomenal test of golf.  I would not want to play it every day, but it is truly a cannot miss.  Mountain and Country Club of the Desert are both worthy golf courses and good resort pieces of property.  They are comparable to what you would find in Arizona.  I would place the Palms ahead of anything I have played in AZ as well.  In addition, there are some very private courses in Palm Springs that are comparable with Quinterro and Troon (The best of AZ golf that I have seen).

Enjoy Palm Springs and go with an open mind.  I do not think you will find AZ superior.  For my money, Vegas probably is best.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

Here are two old threads that might help.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1019764982&start=4

The above is a thread called "Rate the courses in Palm Springs"

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1021230368&start=0

The above is a short thread on The Palms.

Hope these help.

[Jeff Goldman]

David,

No you're right.  I may have spoken too soon, and I surely havent' seen enough in those places.  What I was getting at was that it does seem that the highly regarded courses in these areas are more of the newer "manufactured" than the "classic" type, because they have to be, although I realize those terms are broad.  Also, I wasn't saying Arizona golf was better, I was asking whether the topography could make it better.  In any event, thanks for the response, and I'll report on the conditions, etc., when I get back.

                              Jeff Goldman

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

Now I get what you were saying.  I think that all three area suffer from that problem.  Desert landscape does not lend itself to truly great courses so Architects manufacture features.  Clearly The Palms and Stadium are manufactured golf courses in the same mode as Shadow or SouthShore, Troon or Estancia.  

The back nine at the Mountain has some neat topography that lends itself to the golf course.  Stadium and Palms just created the topography where it was needed.

Have fun and give the Palms a shot.  If you can get on, it really is world class.

[RossFanDan]

Jeff,
Last year I was doing an internship as an Assistant at Mission Hills Country Club and had the opportunity of going to visit my college roommate in vegas quit a few times.  I have not visited the Scottsdale/Phoenix area at all but as far as I can tell, Palm Springs area has the most holes to play, Vegas seems to have some great private clubs.  and Scottsdale area seems to have the most high profile clubs.  If I was still there I could try to help you out at Mission Hills to play the Dinah SHore course which has been rated by Desert Golfer to be the best in the Coachella Valley for private.  Just in case you find some extra time there.  Two beauties are Gary Player's design at the Westin Mission Hills Resort which is in Rancho Mirage near the Country Club.  My favorite public out there is hands down Nick Faldo's Shadow Ridge Marriott course.  I had a few buddies that worked there while I was out there and got the privilege of getting on that course a few times.  I love those British designers!  Shadow Ridge is actually the highest elevation in the valley too.  This enables probably my favorite view of the shadow mountains off to the North and East.  Hope you have a great time in a great place.  Check out the Beer Hunter on the corner of Monterey and 111 in La Quinta.  Also new place on 111 in Rancho Mirage called The YardHouse (worlds largest selection of draft beer).

Dan Lockhart, cant wait to get back to sunny socal

[rpurd]

Golf in the La Quinta area starts and ends with The Quarry.  It is one of Fazio's best jobs.

[Matt_Ward]

Couple of quick comments.

Second the thoughts of rpurd on the merits of The Quarry at LaQuinta -- the finishing stretch by TF is indeed dynamite stuff. Tough to get on but worth it if you can.

Regarding the overall quality of desert golf. AZ has the better overall private layouts when compared to the Vegas area and including the general Palm Springs area -- why? Besides Flories, Arizona is a major haven to the development of the high end private gated community. You can start with Estancia and work your way through with others such as Chapparal Pines, The Rim, Troon, Superstition Mountain, Forest Highlands, Desert Mountain, etc. etc. Yes, Palm Springs has plenty of gated communities but the golf is more pedestrian and less in real design qualities.

If one starts to analyze daily fee golf the argument becomes much more closer as the gaps are not that far apart. I would say the immediate Vegas area may rate a slight edge, however, the spread would not be that great. I know that Shadow Creek is listed as public, but it's more of an outside possibility for nearly everyone who doesn't qualify as a high roller. Again, one has to keep in mind that some people include the Laughlin and Mesquite areas in the mixture when speaking about Vegas golf.

I really enjoy desert golf, but more in keeping with the wild look -- not the refined and blown dry look many of the courses sport in the Springs. Clearly, when you have courses in AZ limited to a maximum of 90 acreas of playable surface you have to be somewhat creative. It doesn't work for many but there are some real notable ones.

One of the more unique aspects of Palm Springs is that each sector of courses does have some notable layouts to try. Plenty have been mentioned on this thread alone. Clearly, the Springs is making major efforts to draw customers even during the height of the HOT summer months.

The bigger issue in each locale? Bring your Visa / Master Card because there are few real quality offerings less than $75.

[Matt_Cohn]

#4 on Landmark North. It's cool looking, it's fun, and it's even a good strategic design. I wouldn't bring this place up so often if it weren't really good.

Ben Dewar's http://www.golftravelinformation.com has some great hole-by-hole tours of most of the courses we're all talking about.

[Jeff Goldman]

Got back from La Quinta awhile ago, but haven't had time to post about it.  Played the Mountain Course and the TPC, which had just re-opened 2 days earlier, and therefore played very soft (and long - the grass on the tees was really high).  The mountain course was a little disappointing because of the "condo corridors" on a lot of the holes.  The ones away from that were fun to see, and seemed to avoid being overdone.  I played just before a college tournament was starting (that afternoon) and the greens were extremely fast and the hole placements on little knobs or ridges, making for some interesting payne stewart at Olympic putts, especially on 2.  The fast greens were great as I am a terrible putter and decelerated into 3 birdies.  But the houses!

The TPC course and the PGA West complex was on another level altogether (loved the picture windows in the restaurant).  Because of the larger greens and being slow it played a lot easier then the Mountain course.  Some of the holes looked quite familiar though.  For instance, 16 reminded me a lot of 16 at the River Course - a big bunker left off the tee, big trouble left at the green (except the dropoff isn't to a river).  I think BWR's 16 is a lot better because of the land it sits on and the use of the tree.  And I feel like I've played the 18th over and over (including at BWR).  However, for a course made from nothing, I can see why people like it.  Do "manufactured" courses like the TPC require more thought and imagination than the ones that make use of good land?  I don't know, but after seeing these courses, my preference is clearly for the latter.  Give me BWR any day, and 18 on the meadow course over any of Dye's other 18th holes that I've played.

Sorry, but I did not get a chance to see any other courses.  I can heartily recommend Azur for dinner though, if you're willing to spend a big chunk (actually, all the food at La Quinta was good).  

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