Long and narrow VS shallow and wide?

[TEPaul]

On the "altered courses" thread I mentioned a hole at Gulf Stream G.C. (Ross) in Delray Fla that had #15 green, reoriented and redesigned by Dick Wilson. This is a bit more significant since this hole was reputedly one of Ross's very favorite short par 4s anywhere (one he mentioned and wrote about).

Wilson basically reversed the golfer's position choice on the fairway to give himself a long and narrow approach or a shallow and wide one.

And it makes me think how good this overall (golfer's choice) strategy is!

Pine Valley has two of the best of these, in my opinion, #8 & #12, and of course they are setup to reverse the basic tee shot play to set the two approach angles!

Philly C.C.'s #1 is also a hole like this. I love this kind of little hole that gives the golfer complete tee shot choice to set his approach choice of long and narrow or shallow and wide.

How would any of you choose to approach greens like these?

[JSlonis]

Tom,

Great question!  Pine Valley's 12th hole best exemplifies your choice of strategy.  After playing the 12th hole enough times, I now realize that it is best to hit your tee shot as far as you can to the outside of the dogleg in order to open up the green for the 2nd shot.  The shorter left side of the fairway leaves a semi-blind iron shot usually over the edge of the left bunker.(very difficult to a back or left pin)

On any of these shorter holes, I would prefer to have an open look to a long narrow approach.  With a short iron or wedge approach I would rather have room short or long of the hole as opposed to more room to the sides.  For me at least with shorter irons, my misses tend to be distance related as opposed to accuracy.  Also having room short or long of the hole you have a greater variety of shots you can play.

[archie struthers]

Interesting how two great players attacked number eight at the Valley differently, albeit with success.

Ben Crenshaw always laid up, hitting three or four iron so as to get a full shot in. Tom Watson, to the contrary, ripped driver right at the green, hoping to get it in the front bunker or have a little flip pitch of fifteen or twenty yards. I personally always favored Watsons' approach, yet dutifully kept my mouth shut and left Ben his preferred implement on the tee.

( Note to all you ex or present caddies, we did not chat about shot selection on the tee, but got out front. )

A subtle problem with the aggressive play of Watson was if you don't really nut it you could leave yourself a hanging lie of 40-60 yards, which really takes some moxie to hit. Just another little nuance that makes Crumps' work so fascinating!!!

[TEPaul]

Archie and Jamie;

In my opinion, when you see a golf hole that induces even very good players to play it in vastly different ways it's a clear indication some very good things are going on.

(I think I've posted this same thread question before on here--age setting in I guess).

But,

How could I forget the mother of all "long and narrow VS shallow and wide" optional approach angles!

Riviera's #10!

It's no coincidence at all that Riviera's #10 just keeps coming up on this site over and over again!

[WilliamWang]

this whole idea of LAN vs SAW is very intriguing.  am i right in guessing that as a strategy it can be employed on short par 4s but less so on medium or long par 4s.  is the key the option to lay back versus hitting driver?  on long par 4s there would be no option for laying back.

likewise, could LAN vs SAW be used on a very long par 5 were the second shot is reachable but only for the longer hitters.  the second LAN is pretty risk.  but if one lays up to a full wedge they are greeted by the demanding accuracy required of SAW.

[TEPaul]

LAN vs SAW!?

I like it William! God knows how many words and terms Golfclubatlas might get into the lexicon of golf if we keep at it!

Have to think about your ideas as to how well they'd work but it seems to me the best of this kind of thing that I've seen happens to be on short par 4s. I suppose it's easier for the architect and the golfer to create the necessary angle with the shorter hole.

Seems to me too that these kinds of holes are best when the green is set off to one side or the other and at some interesting angle or orientation coupled with a wide to very wide fairway or even two of them maybe separated by some obstacle.

Certainly Riv's #10 has some interesting bunkers set within the fairway lines for the tee shot while PV's #8 & #12 have very generous fairways without anything within them. Same with Philly C.C.'s #1.

[brad_miller]

Tom, the comment on very good-great, to world's best human golfers playing a hole differently does indeed say a lot about what is great architecture, maybe even a way for the average guy that hasn't read all the books or thought about it before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie Struthers,
 
For years I favored the long iron lay-up on # 8, then someone told me that Jay Sigel and others prefered to hit 3-wood or driver in an attempt to catch the upslope short of the green, leaving them with the best lie to come in to that green with.
I tried it, and it worked better for me.

What was interesting was all the years that I thought I was playing the hole smart by laying up, when it actually left me a far more difficult shot.

On # 12, I've never layed up.  I agree with Jamie, hit it as far as you can down the right side.  For me it leaves me with a more comfortable shot, no matter where the pin is.
I find a back left pin very difficult to handle with a layed-up iron off the tee.

TEPaul,

You realize that the 1st green at NGLA gives you an element of this.  Use the driver, hit it where you want to and you have a direct shot right up the face of the green.  Lay an iron to the right off the tee, and you have an angled, blind approach.

# 1 at GCGC has this element in a less severe form, but, with the prevailing wind at your back, it starts to play in the same fashion.

The  14th at Pine Tree also has that feature.  The closer you hit it to the water, the better your angle into the green.  The more you play safe and bail out to the right, the more difficult the angle into the green, which is also narrow.

[Eric Pevoto]

The 5th (maybe the 4th?  :-/ ) at Lancaster is one of my favorites.  A short par 4 with a creek running up the right side of the fairway.  The green sits across and above the creek to the right and it's axis runs parallel to the creek.  The closer to the creek or shorter the drive, the better the angle.  I always thought it would be interesting to lengthen the fairway on the left side of the creek to extend beyond the green so that the option of playing long would also better the angle.  

 Word has it that there was once an open approach to the green from the right side of the creek making for an interesting choice off the tee.

This hole is one that provides a ton of options without being really that wide off the tee.