Buffalo, NY Golf

[Stephen Brown]

Gents:

Heading up to Buffalo for a five day visit.  What courses must I play/see and why ?  

Thanks,

Steve Brown

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I am told by some natives that CC of Buffalo (Ross) is probably the best course in that area, and thus worth a look.  There is an older course called Grover Cleveland Golf Course which hosted the 1912 US Open, and was the original CC of Buffalo.  It's a public course now, so I'm not sure about the condition or what to expect.  Travis has Orchard Park CC just south of the city, and Golf Digest has had very kind words of the Hill Course in Chautauqua/Jamestown (about an hour or so from the city), which is also a Ross course.  I'll talk to my friend from work (a very good player) and inquire what else is worth a look.  

[Kevin_Fraser]

Whirlpool in Niagara Falls Ontario is a worth a look if you have the time.  Although some changes have made since Thompson's time - it is still well kept, decently priced and a enjoyable test.


http://www.niagaraparksgolftrail.com/whirlpool/

[Matt_Ward]

S Brown:

Try to include a round at Crag Burn -- one of the more underrated RTJ designs. It is private though.

[John Foley]

Steve,

I've heard alot of good about Craig Burn and Orchard Park Country Club. CC of Buf & Park Cub are also highly respected. The "problem" w/ Buffalo is the public golf is terrible. Glen Oak in Amherst is the best and when I played it a few years ago, came away very unimpressed.

Best public access golf is in Niagara Falls. Need to check out the Legends courses along w/ the aforementioned Whirlpool along w/ HunterPointe. Royal Niagara is also in the area, but a notch lower than those 4.

[Dan Herrmann]

Grover Cleveland GC is NOT where the 1912 US Open was held - well, it's the same land, but not the same course.

John is right - Buffalo public golf is generally speaking quite poor.

Sheridan Park in Tonawanda held the 1962 USGA Public Links, but they sacrificed the best holes for a parking lot (former holes 3-8 on the other side of Sheridan Drive).

Glen Oaks was an early "CCFAD" attempt, and I think that it fails.

New York State Parks (the guys who bring us Bethpage) have a course on Grand Island called Beaver Island that's a boring, but pleasant experience.  You'd think that they'd have used the Niagara River as a lateral hazard, but you'd be wrong.

Niagara Falls, ON is the place to go.  And to be on the safe side, bring your passport.  Post 9/11 border crossings are a lot easier with that little blue book.  (At the very least, be sure to have an original birth certificate).

[Stephen Brown]

Sirs:

I appreciate the input, and I will be sure to report back on what I have seen.  Thanks again !!

Steve Brown

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Grover Cleveland GC is NOT where the 1912 US Open was held - well, it's the same land, but not the same course.

What is the real story, then?  The information I used lists Grover Cleveland as the original CC of Buffalo.  Was it razed and a new course built?  
Please set me straight here, so I have the right information going forth.

[Dan Herrmann]

From what I know, most of the CC of Buffalo was actually across Main Street where UB is now.  There were some holes back on the other side of Main Street, but they're definitely not from the old CC of Buffalo.  

When the city built the 18-hole course, they apparently started over.

There MAY be a couple of greens or fairway bunkers left over, but I'm pretty sure they are not dating from the original course.

However, to be fair, text at http://www.erie.gov/parks/grover.asp hints that it's the original course.

Here's another interesting document: http://rin.buffalo.edu/c_erie/envi/plan/erie_park/masterplan/vol2/4.3PSR-GroverCleveland.pdf

[Ronald Montesano]

I've never had reason to refute Dan Herrman...until now.

Dan, I'm sorry to say that your source was completely incorrect.  The 1912 US Open was held over those hallowed acres now called Grover Cleveland. In fact, a young assistant pro from Rochester was allowed to come to Buffalo and play a practice round there, but not compete in the tournament proper (as his head pro/employer did not feel him quite ready for the competition.)  Thus, the golfing world had to wait for 1913 at Brookline for Walter Hagen to debut in the US Open.  Something else happened in 1913, but I don't quite recall...

The 1912 US Open course extended across Eggert Road and down toward the watertower at the corner of Winspear and Bailey.  The Veteran's Administration hospital did not exist at the time, and the land along Bailey Avenue  housed the only Par Six hole ever used in a US Open championship.

Walter Travis was responsible for sprucing up the course in preparation for the 1912 Open.  A few years later, the club brought in Donald Ross for a bit more work.  I believe that he made a few suggestions, the most important of which was to purchase new land (as the city was encroaching.)  The current CCB, in Williamsville, is a Donald Ross course.

(I did a piece for a local mag on this topic.  Here is proof but, unfortunately, not the entire story:  http://wnyheritagepress.org/magazine/summerfall_03/magazine.htm
I'm looking for the original and will attach it as a PDF to this thread when found.)

Also, Mr. Herrmann is off on his assessment of Glen Oak as a CCFAD course.  It is now, but was originally known as Ransom Oaks Country Club (later Country Club of Amherst) during its private days.  It was built as the centerpiece of the RO housing development, modeled on Florida housing communities.  It was designed by RTJ, Senior and occupies an incredibly flat and boring piece of swampland.  In spite of this pedigree, however, it is an enjoyable turn for 17 holes, before reaching one of the worst 18th holes in the lower 48.

Fortunately for Buffalo golfers, times have changed since 2004.  The public side has seen the opening of at least five new higher-end courses:  Diamond Hawk and Harvest Hill (Hurdzan-Fry), Arrowhead (Witter), Ivy Ridge (consortium) Hickory Stick (RTJ2) and three new middle-end courses:  Concord Crest (consortium), Ironwood (Witter), Buffalo Tournament Club (Tim Davis).  

Within an hour's drive of Buffalo, one can play hill-country courses like Peek 'n Peak, Elkdale, Tri-County and Byrncliff, whose entire topography differs markedly from the flattish sort found in the metro Buffalo area.  Across the Niagara River, there is much good middle-end and higher-end public access golf to be had.

Regarding private clubs, Walter Travis seems to have laid a fingerprint down with more frequency than any other golden age architect.  His Stafford and Orchard Park on the USA side and Cherry Hill and Lookout Point on the CA side are more than the 1 Donald Ross (CC Buffalo), the 1 Colt/Allison (Park Club), the 1 Stiles/Van Kleek (South Shore, public) and the 1 MacKenzie (just kidding, we WISH we had a MacKenzie!)

The most prolific WNY architect was a gent named William Harries.  He turned out a fair amount of boring courses, with the exceptions being Brookfield (private) and Sheridan Park (public.)  Kevin Lynch recently uncovered evidence that Harries built the Cherry Hill greens according to Travis' specifications.  If this is true (Ian Andrew, got an opinion?), then they were the only 18 interesting greens that Harries ever built in his lifetime.

If one were to travel to Buffalo and ask for a top ten public and top ten private, my lists would go thus:

Public
Seneca Hickory Stick, Lewiston
Harvest Hill, Orchard Park
Diamond Hawk, Cheektowaga
Arrowhead, Akron
Holiday Valley, Ellicottville
Ivy Ridge, Akron
Peek 'n Peak Upper, Clymer
Glen Oak, Amherst
Ironwood, Cowlesville
Byrncliff, Varysburg

Private
Crag Burn, East Aurora
CC Buffalo, Williamsville
Park Club, Williamsville [forgot this in initial posting but, thanks to Dan Herrmann, made the addition.]
Lancaster, Lancaster
River Oaks, Grand Island (for once, a sane/logical/stable Muirhead...Doak won't believe it!!!)
Cherry Hill, Ridgeway (Ontario, CA)
Stafford, Batavia
Wanakah, Hamburg
Moonbrook, Jamestown
Niagara Frontier, Youngstown

[Dan Herrmann]

River Oaks?  You're kidding, right?  You put River Oaks ahead of Niagara Falls CC (home of the Porter Cup)?

How does Park compare?

----------
On Grover Cleveland - did any of the original CCoB course sit on the other side of Bailey Ave?   (I had my info from some UB history geeks when I was in school there).  Are any of the earthworks on Grover dating from the US Open period?  Why did was the land purchased by the government?

========
On Glen Oaks, I remember playing it as a daily fee course back in the early '80s and didn't think it was that great.  I had (incorrectly) assumed it was always daily fee.

[Ronald Montesano]

Easily...Porter Cup is a great tournament, but NFCC is a hodge-podge of architectural styles (Tilly--very little, RTJ Senior, Cornish) with more boring holes than River Oaks.  River is such a varied course and overall, more balanced.  The great holes at NFCC are better than the best at River, but River overall is a better, more balanced course.

Park is awesome.  They just had some work done to bring it back to where it began.  In fact, it should be in my original top ten and I can't believe I forgot it.

[Gerry B]

cc of buffalo is very good - and yes i can re-confirm that the 1912 us open was at its original location grover cleveland  - which was won by John McDermott- who also won the prior year at Chicago GC - when he was the youngest player (19) and 1st American to win it. he was also the pro at Atlantic City  CC.

others in the area that i have not played but heard good things about are:

Cherry Hill -
Lookout Point
Whirlpool
Niagara Falls CC
Park Club

Also,if you are willing to drive an hour over the border into Canada there is Hamilton GC in Ancaster, Ontario  which is without question the best course in the area 

[Ronald Montesano]

Gerry,

It gets a bit hazy when trying to define "the area."  Buffalo to Hamilton is farther than Hamilton to Toronto.  There is no question that Hamilton has some tremendous fame; I hope to get to it one day to enjoy its wondrous course.

Park is certainly fitting for the classification "hidden gem."  It sits in a glade, below Sheridan Drive to the north, yet also below the escarpment line that runs just slightly to its south.

Cherry Hill and Lookout Point are Travis...enough said.

Whirlpool is a public Stanley Thompson design that merits a trip around.

NFCC...for those in the Doak world, would probably be a 5...a nice course with some interesting holes, some weak holes and little architectural consistency.  For example, it has one of those typical RTJ short par threes, modeled on #16 at Augusta National...L-shaped green (or slight variation) guarded by water left and sand right.  It's a nice hole, until you realize it was done many other times in many other places (he did one at Crag Burn and one at Glen Oak, in the WNY area.)  RTJ was not the original archie at NFCC; that honor went to Tilly.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

 NYS does have a nice location in W. NY where they could build a compliment to the Bethpage State Park golf courses.  It's Allegany State Park in the SW.  Here is a link:

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/73/details.aspx

65,000 acres of land.  I am sure that the people who use the park now would pass out flat on the floor is someone suggested building a golf course there.  My Great Grandfather was the first Superintendent of the Park.  My Grandfather built many of the original buildings and a damn to create Science Lake.  I think a golf course or two in the Park would be completely appropriate.

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan, I glossed over your middle questions...I'll address them now:

"On Grover Cleveland - did any of the original CCoB course sit on the other side of Bailey Ave?"

No, it did not sit across Bailey Avenue.

"(I had my info from some UB history geeks when I was in school there)."

Misinformed History geeks. 

"Are any of the earthworks on Grover dating from the US Open period?"

Yes,much of the cross bunkering and land forms date from that period...It's easy to see why, as they typically rest a mere 120 yards from the tee.  When the course was truncated, the polo fields in the middle of the course were utilized for new holes.  I have a pdf of the course from then on my computer somewhere...let me search it out.

"Why did was the land purchased by the government?

Why purchased?  My guess is, the Club had moved on and an edge of city course was now made available for public use.  It hosted the 1926 US Amateur Public Links championship (making it the only course to host the US Open and US APL), won by Lester Bolstad.  The course was intact then; the VA hospital came a few decades on.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sean, you are correct.  Allegheny would be an amazing site for some golf but the naturalists and preservationists would justifiably see it as a foot in the door for expansionists, capitalists, destructivists, whomever!

The one NYS park course in WNY that Dan mentioned does not avail itself of the Niagara River views.  Beaver Island was built by William Harries (strike one) and had the misfortune of abutting a crummy old house at the southern end of the park (strike two) that was declared a historic site, thus preventing the extension of the course near the water.  I can only imagine how wonderful the course might have been, as it approaches (but does not reach) the southern point of Grand Island, where the mighty Niagara splits in two above the Falls.

[Harris Nepon]

I would add to the private course list in Buffalo, East Aurora Country Club (Haines Merritt, I think?). We have a reciprocal with East Aurora and I find it to be a great play the few times I've been there. Fantastic approach shots to many of the greens due to change in elevations. Fantastic greens that play quick and true with just enough contours. We've never visited this course and left with a bad experience.

[Dan Herrmann]

Ronald,
Good info on that land.  I had heard for years that the land extended across Bailey and that the university bought it for expansion.  Go figure

Sean,
I think that Allegheny is in a pretty interesting pickle right now.  If I recall correctly, the Seneca Nation has a claim on a lot of the land down there, and it's put things into a state of uncertainty.  I can tell you that Salamanca, NY is really hurting.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  Yes Dan it seems the NYS is doing everything they can to stress the relationship with the Senaca Nation.  I have not kept up on it as much as I should but it is ashame that the relationship is stresses.  My Grandmother's family is from Salamanca. My Grandfather played baseball with and knew many of the Seneca Indians.  The Park draws plenty of visitors and the Seneca's have a casino just outside the gates.  Now don't you think they could play nice and benefit from each other?  NYS is so worried about collecting taxes so they would have a few more million to waist. 

   Anyway, I have often thought that it would be very cool to move back to my roots and build some golf in or near the park.  Just not sure it would be profitable enough to make it work.

[Dan Herrmann]

Yeah, but I love your idea of a new NY State Park golf course there.  It could draw from everywhere from Toronto to Ohio to Pittsburgh to Albany.  It's a very beautiful area and the golf could be great, especially if enough trees were cleared to open up the landscape.  And could you imagine how wonderful it'd be to play along the river!

[Ronald Montesano]

Harris,
The membership at EACC is wonderful.  They host an international junior event each year that was won this year by one of my players (proof positive that the coach is the least important figure in the equation!)  The only knock on the course is the reticence of driver holes, even before technology's advances.  I will go one step farther and say that after a round at East Aurora CC, you will remember each and every one of the 18 holes...there is not a blah or non-controversial hole out there.

Here's the surprise:  Bob Labbance, in one of his final two books before his passing, determined that Wayne Stiles (of Stiles and Van Kleek fame) was involved in the design and construction of EACC.  Here is a link to that portion of the book:  http://buff-golf.com/labbance.htm#ja07

[Mark Arata]

cant add anything about golf up there, didnt get to play, but you could put toronto into the picture if you wanted to, its only about a 90 minute drive....

However, you must go to the Anchor Bar for wings......and then send me some sauce!

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark,

You could, but it's a totally different world in TO.  B-Flow is one type of city and TO is another.  TO merits its own thread series.