Why do Cupp/Kite get no respect...

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought the Vanderbuilt course was as good as the land would allow...but that is the only one I have played.  So what's up with their body of work.  You gotta admit the Kite just seems like a great fit.

[Joe Hancock]

Good luck with this one, John. I don't think it can compete with all the threads that...never mind.

When Cupp/ Kite something exciting, it will get talked about, I'm sure. And, I'm not saying they haven't, because I haven't seen or played any of their work. But, exciting golf means different things to different people, and there's enough different people on here that someone will talk about them and their work instead of background music on a webpage.

Joe

[david h. carroll]

I think one of their first was our West Course at Five Farms, and most members really enjoy it as a different style from the fantastic East Course.  My only complaint, and one voiced by multiple members, is the abundance of downhill tee shots and approaches....come to think of it, I think only two holes have uphill approaches (15th if you really bang a drive down the hill and the 9th which is a gentle grade of maybe 1/2 club uphill)....there are some fabulous holes, the 15th being one of them, but when you juxtapose the course as a whole with the East and the plans Tillie had for the West, the Cupp/Kite West just lacks the element of thrill.

[Mike Hendren]

John,

My experience is limited to the two 18's at Vanderbilt Legends Club.  Both routings are generally weak, but perhaps constricted by the desire to fit 36 holes on the site.  As a result, there's little triangulation, few doglegs and abundant peripheral containment mounding.  

BUT, there are some very good golden age features strewn about, particularly on the north course:  the stretched Biarritz green with a false front at the 4th,  the vertical spine in the 6th green, the drop down back shelves of the 7th, 8th and 11th greens, the centerline carry bunker at the 10th, the Stillwellian green at the 17th, the eye-fooling fairway bunker that appears greenside at the 13th and the greenside bathtub surrounded by a bunker at the 16th.  

Here's the homer statement of the year:  the 5th on the south course is one of the best short par fours in America.  I pledge to do a pictorial essay to back that up.  

These two are not great courses, but they are interesting and fun.

Mike  

[Jay Flemma]

Using Liberty National as an example, let me outline some thoughts on some hole designs and general concepts.  First, globally, they move three millions cubic yards of earth, then put all the best contours out of play.  They got a seaside venue and build chocolate drop mounds lining one side of the fairway and put a lake on the other (hole 5).  Because its insanely long, yet the greens may be too small fit well (time will tell on that.)

There are some good things too...but here may be the rub...

There has been so much hype to alot of their courses, but then they may only "just meet" expectations or fall just a drop short of lofty goals.  Its always easier to get respect when you overrachieve and come in on time and under budget (say, Jim Engh) than when you meet on the nose the $130 million budget, then get a course thats merely "really good" instead of "The greatest golf course in the world."

When everyone is told to expect a ten on the Doak scale and they get a 8....you know...even an 8 can be a bit of a let down

Plus LibNat was built under the instruction of "get me the US Open or PGA or Ryder Cup."  They'll apparently be getting some pro tournament soon - there's been alot of chatter going on tween NYC and PGA HQ on that, but what that will be is anybody's guess.

I'd like to see the course do well as the idea of having go\od golf available right after work near manhattan is great.  Plus Adrian and Josh Zeide are great guys.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I've enjoyed what Cupp I've played, so my question is how has Tom Kite changed Bob Cupp's style?  I realize that Mr. Cupp's name does not come up a lot here, but how different are the contributions with Tom Kite being involved?

Generally does Bob Cupp get no respect?

[Steve Lapper]

Jay,

   The "chatter" is about a Reebok sponsored event to be held at LibNat. I'm hearing that it's very far from any done deal and that the PGA is playing Trump v. Adidas (the owner of Reebok)....I'd not bet on this happening anytime soon.

[PThomas]

anybody played Cupp's course at Reynolds Plantation?

[Chris_Blakely]

One quick example:  taking a classic Devereux Emmet course -Leatherstocking GC and modernizing/making look like ever other Cupp course out there.  Just what we need.

I guess if you build a "great" driving range/practice area that gives you carte blanche to modernize the course.

[Mike Hendren]

Chris,

What does "every other Cupp course out there" look like?

Mike

[Chris_Blakely]

http://foothillgreens.com/Leatherstocking/L5.html

Look at the last picture on this page, that is of the 4th hole green.  There was a closer image of this green.  This bunkering style is reminiscent of Indianwood New and NOT Emmet.

Should Cupp being forcing his own bunker style on a classic course like Leatherstocking or should he be attempting to restore the bunkers or at least make them look more like the Emmet bunkers??

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

Could you post what an Emmet bunker looks like for me...

[David Wigler]

anybody played Cupp's course at Reynolds Plantation?

Paul,

I thought it was a fairly weak course and have been surprised the Reynolds did not blow it up and start over.  I have played five Cupp courses (Hardly qualifying me as an expert on him).  On a whole, I feel he over designs.  That written, it occasionally works and I would be the first to say that Old Waverly is one of the most underrated courses in the country and a place i would love to play every day.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Steve...any more info on what the Reebok sponsored event would be?

[Mike Hendren]

On a whole, I feel he over designs.  That written, it occasionally works.....

Well stated.  That is manifested at my home courses.

Mike

[John Kirk]

I don't see what the problem is.  Liberty National is one of the new, very difficult, high profile, big money projects, tailor made to attract professional golf tournaments.  Can you imagine how Bob Cupp and Tom Kite feel about this opportunity?  A chance to build a big course from a landfill, with a big budget, right on the water with the Statue of Liberty in the distance?  I'd bet they put their heart and souls into this, making it the best they possibly could.

Have you ever heard of a par 70 course with a 76.0 rating from the back tees?  That's really hard.

I've played Pumpkin Ridge's courses many times, so I am familiar with Bob Cupp's work.  To summarize, I'd say he builds golf holes with solid strategic value.  At Pumpkin, the best line of approach on par 4s and par 5s is almost always achieved by driving over a fairway bunker, or driving as close as possible to that bunker.  Also, his holes are not "quirky".  Quality shots are rewarded with a good result.  His courses are eminently fair.  We here at GCA may not regard that as a good thing, but the pros will.

I think Mr. Cupp's design philosophy has matured as well.  Did you see the undulations in the 17th fairway on the website?  None of that can be found at Pumpkin Ridge, where most fairway lies are level.

Also, for $500k and $25k per year, I bet they keep that course in fantastic shape.  Not essential for you and me, but most people love that.  Not that they're going to fill the membership at that price.  NO way.

It's not quite my cup of tea, but it looks and sounds like a fine course, hard but fair.

[A.G._Crockett]

I haven't seen any of the Cupp/Kite courses, but I have often wondered why Cupp doesn't get more mention and postive strokes here on GCA.  I've enjoyed everything of his that I've seen, and a couple among that limited sample are excellent.  Hawks Ridge is getting a fair amount of juice in magazine rankings, and deservedly so, IMO.  Also, Settindown Creek is a terrific test on less than the best piece of ground, and has a pretty good resume of events hosted.

I also liked Savannah Harbor, and enjoyed The Woodyard, which has already been blown up and replaced by a Norman design that I haven't seen.  

Is it possible that the majority of Cupp's work is outside the NE, and so is not reviewed here nearly as much?  Just a theory...

[Chris_Blakely]

John,

Emmet's bunkering at Leatherstocking were primarliy grassed faced and less free form as the course was done prior to Tull joining up.  His bunkering style changed based on the site.

http://foothillgreens.com/Leatherstocking/L11.html

The pit in front of the 13th green was at one time sand.  I have some older images, but not the time to scan and or dig the ones I found in Golf Illustrated prior to the USGA putting it online.

I can say Emmet's bunkering does NOT look like what was done at the 4th green.  Furthermore, if you have played the course it will be quite evident.

[Jay Flemma]

John - I like Pumpkin Ridge very much.

As the Good Dr. said, there is a big difference between what the pros like and what is a great golf hole...I side with Mackenzie on this one.

Here's the thing about LibNat...there's only one hole with a great line of charm and that resembles anything you'd find at say NGLA...they have one bifurcated fairway hole at I think its 12 or 13...the rest is really narrow even though there is plenty of acreage.  There are very few interesting greenside chipping swales or contours and it may be impossible for amateurs if they are playing in a 40 MPH crosswind.  Again, there are some good things there too.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Here's the thing about LibNat...there's only one hole with a great line of charm and that resembles anything you'd find at say NGLA...

The tiny 14th hole is cool, too...

I agree with one of the posts above that LNGC was, at Mr Fireman's orders, designed to be a course able to test the PGA pros. Very long and narrow (some holes are even claustrophobic). In the wind, it will be brutal.

I will hazard a guess that LN will be a 5 on the Doak scale. And if the views count for a point, it will be a 6.

Time will tell.

In the end, it is all good. In 2006 the NYC area  will get 2 new golf courses (LN and Bayonne). Both are built on dead land, pretty much unsuitable for anything else.

If I were Finchem, I would jump on having a tournament at LN in a few years. Lord knows that PGA Tour needs a shot in the arm in terms of TV ratings. Even NASCAR is coming to NYC. Why not PGA Tour?

[Jay Flemma]

Right on Voytek..you are exactly right.  Its a nice backyard thing and its a nice place to bop to if there is a tournament.  

[Mark Brown]

Bob Cupp is very interesting a deep-thinker and quite artistic.
I enjoy talking to him. He does a lot of things that he puts a
lot of thought into, ie contours in the fairway landing areas that he refers to as a form of a hazard. Reynolds is old and not his best work, but he's done a lot of good work like Hawk's Ridge in Atlanta.

He's not concerned with rankings and stroking raters and writers, but he's an interesting conversationalist. Open your minds and you may see something good even though right now you criticize him without any knowledge. That happens a lot here.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   Who is criticizing Cupp without any knowledge? You may not agree with some of the opinions given on this site, but I would say it is quite a minority  who do so "without any knowledge".