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JohnV

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2008, 08:50:35 PM »
As Jeff said, you can have the flagstick attended when you are playing from anywhere.

It doesn't have to be removed, but if the ball were to strike the flagstick or the attendee, it would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or an loss of hole penalty in match play.

Chris Cupit

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2008, 08:51:55 PM »
David,

Jeff is correct.  The flag may be attended for any shot.  In some cases players like he idea of chiping to a hole without a falgstick.  I guess psychologically it may seem like more of a "makeable chip".  (I'm a Pelz devotee and his analysis says always leave the flagstick in).

Anyway, I assume Lange simply could not see the hole at all if the flag was removed (it was a very deep bunker and he is about 5' 8") and yet he wanted the flagstick out as the ball rolled toward the hole.

On another note I had a player who had a very unusual habit of using his divot repair tool to create a very substancial "irregularity of surface" on the tee of par threes.  When he was done he had created a grass perch of at least 1/2" that he placed his ball on.  Very unusual and it raised eyebrows but it is allowed under Rule 11.

Chris Cupit

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2008, 08:53:44 PM »
As Jeff said, you can have the flagstick attended when you are playing from anywhere.

It doesn't have to be removed, but if the ball were to strike the flagstick or the attendee, it would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or an loss of hole penalty in match play.

John,

Had Lange's ball in motion (his third stroke) struck his caddie (and Mitchell had already holed out for 3)  how would you have announced the result of the hole? 

David_Tepper

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2008, 10:38:24 PM »
Chris, Jeff & John -

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, I was mistaken.

DT

JohnV

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2008, 04:30:18 AM »
As Jeff said, you can have the flagstick attended when you are playing from anywhere.

It doesn't have to be removed, but if the ball were to strike the flagstick or the attendee, it would be a two-stroke penalty in stroke play or an loss of hole penalty in match play.

John,

Had Lange's ball in motion (his third stroke) struck his caddie (and Mitchell had already holed out for 3)  how would you have announced the result of the hole? 

Chris,

I believe we announce it as "Mr Lange loses the hole for a violation of Rule 17-3".  These are covered in the scripts that are in the book we were given at the start of the week.  Mine is currently packed for my flight home so I can't get at it.

Thomas MacWood

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2008, 07:16:58 AM »
I'm huge fan of Hugh Alison's work, and Milwaukee was one of his most important designs. Unfortunately I don't get the impression the club has the same admiration. When I heard they were restoring the course I figured they would be replacing all the Trent Jones bunkers with Alison's original bunkering scheme. Maybe I missed it, are they not restoring Alison's bunkers? In addition they are remodeling three of his holes. Is that correct? This appears to be the antithesis of what occured at Kirtland.

JohnV

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2008, 08:19:12 AM »
Tom,  Tom Doak should speak to that as he did the most recent work at Milwaukee.

Thomas MacWood

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2008, 08:22:27 AM »
John
Thats my understanding too.

Phil McDade

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2008, 09:00:22 AM »
Tom:

The course, at least from my limited knowledge, appears to be holding true to several of Alison's key design concepts. Quoting from your GCA "Gliding past Fuji" article:

-----------------

"All these influences contributed to the Alison style, a style that did feature very deep bunkers. Not only were his bunkers deep - both greenside and fairway - they were also very large in scale. Alison’s greenside bunkers were frequently as large as the greens they guarded. He often elevated the green well above the approaching fairway or tee, bunkers were then cut well below the elevation, in effect increasing their depth. Fairway bunkers were placed against or below mounding, also increasing their effective depth. And he was not opposed to an occasional forced carry -- usually with bunkers set at a diagonal, allowing for choice and rewarding the bold play.

"Greenside mounds would often encroach upon the putting surfaces. This was Alison’s preferred method of creating undulations in his greens, extending and merging either natural undulations or mounds on to the green surfaces. And like many designers his greens were oriented to one side or the other through the placement of greenside hazards or pronounced contours, rewarding those who chose the best angle of attack (occasionally the center was the preferred approach). Another common device was the tilting of his greens sideways -- an approach from the wrong angle or one poorly struck would fall away.

Alison wrote very detailed descriptions of how his design features should appear. His mounding was to have a ‘broken horizon’, and his bunkers were to have the sand ‘splashed’ up to point where it met a band native soil and the grass of the mound. He referred to this meeting of sand and grass as 'rivetting' - although he did not use the term in its classic sense - and it was to have an uneven outline. (Many of his bunkers in the US now have grass facing, with little or no flashing and are very regular in outline)...

"He was among the first architects to embrace the use of water in his designs--perhaps the influence of Pine Valley. This is somewhat of a paradox, throughout his career Alison wrote that water was a bad feature, or at least the excessive use of water was bad. “Water is a bad feature in that the ball cannot be played from it, and in consequence it does not test the golfer’s skill. Its hideous charm lies in the fact that it is inexorable, and its landscape effect is often very valuable.” In regards to Japan he observed, “The Japanese love of ponds and lakes, and their exquisite skill in making them, is known throughout the world. Their love of water-hazards, were it not for their self-control, might develop dangerously.”

"Kirtland, Sea Island, Colony, Timber Point, Milwaukee, Tokyo, Hirono and number of other courses utilized rivers, streams, ponds and marshlands as integral design features -- almost always oriented at an angle allowing for choice."

---------------------

I think you can see many of these features incorporated into Milwaukee CC. Certainly the most distinctive are the flashed-up, high-lipped greenside bunkers (as well as many fairway bunkers). The bunkers are truly on a grand scale -- large, wide, and in many cases, quite deep, where a player in the lowest point of the bunker often cannot see much if any of the playing surface. Fairway bunkers, for the most part, appeared fairly penal -- with some, a shot at the green is possible, but with others it's simply a matter of advancing the shot forward because of the high lips of the bunkers.

Alison made use of the curving Milwaukee River (essentially two backward S's form the eastern edge of the course), in a way similar to what he did at Kirtland. At Milwaukee, he didn't necessarily incorporate the river in a strategic way (although the golfer hits over it a few times on tee shots). Rather, in a way strikingly similar to Kirtland, he utilized the river valley as a routing tool to get the player from the course's highest ground (near the clubhouse) into the valley holes. The holes that run alongside or near the river (holes 11-15) feature the flattest terrain on the course, and consequently feature some of the boldest bunkering on the course.

Other notable architectural features are: the use of a ridge line on holes 4 (a long par 3) and 18 (a fine finishing hole) to either site a green (4) or provide a target for the golfer to go over and be rewarded with an easier approach shot (18); the use of dramatic false fronts on greens (notably 9 and 11, the two shortest par 4s on the course); and a deep ravine incoporated into the 8th and 9th holes (although much more of a factor on 8 than 9). Greens for the most part do not feature significant internal swales; more often they are tilted, either from back to front, or to one side toward a bunker. The long, tough uphill par 3 17th, e.g., is made all the more difficult by a green tilted toward a deep greenside bunker.

Two holes have been significantly rebuilt, with new greens -- the shortish par 5 3rd, and the difficult par 4 14th. Certainly the greenside bunkering on both reflects the trademark Alison bunkering approach; they holes look pretty seamless in how the fit in with the rest of the course (14 perhaps a bit more than 3).

No. 10, a short par 5 for members and a long par 4 for the Mid-Am, has not been completey rebuilt, but significantly altered. A fairway bunker left was replaced with a series of bunkers right, while a greenside bunker left has been eliminated. A long row of trees lining the right side of the fairway has been completely cut down. Members I spoke to at the Mid-Am thought the hole had been significantly improved.

The course, although still heavily treed, has undertaken a significant tree removal program, opening up views to the river on holes 10, 11, 14, and allowing for a new back tee on the long par 5 15th. The recent Mid-Am featured several days with a fresh Wisconsin fall breeze, and I can't help but think the tree-cutting made the wind more of a factor. Still, there are some places where I think the course could take down even more trees (notably a stretch of back-and-forth holes on the front nine -- holes 5, 6, and 7).

I hope to post some pictures of the course within a week or so.








« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 09:08:40 AM by Phil McDade »

Thomas MacWood

Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2008, 09:55:54 AM »
Phil
How many times have you heard a modern architect say that he was holding true to the original designer's concepts as he redesigns the course or heard them say if the original architect had been alive today he would have approved of these changes?

The fact is RTJ added his bunkering, and while some of CHA bunkers did survive, many of those have been given a RTJ stylization. The sad thing is the course is fairly well preserved (beyond some bunkers), or I should say was fairly well preserved prior to the remodelling of those three holes, and could have been restored fairly easily, I would think.

Do you know if there had been an attempt to restore Alison's bunkering style?  Kirtland's new aesthetic is a good reflection of his style.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 10:02:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil McDade

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2008, 10:32:12 AM »
Tom:

You're initial question is probably beyond my level of expertise. From what I've seen of Alison courses (pictures), the bunkering at MCC seems within the realm of what he was known for in terms of his approach to bunkering. One of the assistant pros I spoke with said the Alison greenside bunkering there was original, although I assume -- like any course that's 80 years old -- some amount of work has been done to them. Whether they are wholesale changes or not, I'm not sure.

If one follows your description of Alison's bunker...

"Not only were his bunkers deep - both greenside and fairway - they were also very large in scale. Alison’s greenside bunkers were frequently as large as the greens they guarded. He often elevated the green well above the approaching fairway or tee, bunkers were then cut well below the elevation, in effect increasing their depth."

...then MCC is certainly full of these kinds of bunkers.

I know RJ Daley also visited the course during the Mid-Am, and he's much more familiar with RTJ bunkering than I am, and may have some thoughts. A few of the bunkers -- notably the fairway complex of bunkers on the short par 4 11th, the long bunker complex on the dogleg of the par 4 13th, and the fairway bunkering on the long par 5 15th -- were notable either for their number (11) or the irregular edging to them (esp. 13). Whether those are Alison bunkers, RTJ, or someone else, I'm not sure.

Hopefully, when I get my pictures up, it can help clarify and illuminate some things.



RJ_Daley

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2008, 11:40:26 AM »
Phil, I am definately not qualified to opine on the authenticity or stereotypical design of MCC's remodeled Robert Trent Jones Sr's work. 

I would only say that on first impression, I sensed or picked-up a vibe that the bunkering and their placements at MCC put me in mind of Hazeltine. 

I was talking with Brendan Dolan and we wondered what the course would play like with mowing FW cut right into the bunkers and throughout the nests of bunkers, or all the way around the back sloped sides.  The rough on the back sides in many cases extended several yards, and would not allow a ball where the player takes on the bunker and clears it, to gain any good advantage at all, and indeed would be very penal on a slight downhill lie and in deep rough as presented by the USGA for this tournament.  I have no idea how they present the course mowing line for members.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Spets

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2008, 11:46:27 AM »
RJ....

I saw a situation just as you described it.  Player doesn't quite clear bunker complex on 11...presented with a nasty downhill lie with long grass falling toward the green...about 100 yards.  The green on 11 has a nasty false front...making it virtually impossible to hold the top level of the green from such a lie. 

To me...the fairway bunker complex on 11 and the cross bunkers on the long par-5 15th were the only ones that looked out of place.  By the way, I didn't see a single drive come within 25 yards of those fairway bunkers on 15.  They were way out of range from the back tees. 

RJ_Daley

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2008, 01:52:09 PM »
Yeah Doug, but it is well within the possiblity of us hackers skanky second shots!   ;) :D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2008, 02:22:04 PM »
Please consider Milwaukee Country Club a "work in progress". 

The fairway bunkers (position and style) that have been pointed out in this thread are most certainly on our hit list; however, more pressing projects took priority.  I am fortunate in that we have a patient membership that values quality over quantity.

As for the grass lines of the fairways; what you saw is what our members get.  There has been significant expansion in recent years and perhaps more to come. The USGA, much to the credit of Allison Jarret, saw no need to alter the course in any fashion in advance of the Championship.  Truth be told I would love to go back to 90 yard wide fairways but there's a bit of a budget concern that comes with that, I'm sure you understand.

Pat

RJ_Daley

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2008, 02:38:57 PM »
Pat, congratulations to you and staff for presenting a great golf course for the tournament.  I was told that there are some nice old photos in the CH from the early era.  If so, do they dramatically demonstrate the evolution of the course and readily indicate the comparison of what C&A designed? 

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

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Re: US Mid-AM at Milwaukee CC
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »
Here is an '06 article from Wisconsin Golfer, the in-house publication of the Wisc. State Golf Assoc., that highlights work at some of the state's oldest courses, including Milwaukee CC; it mentions the work at MCC re. bunker depth.

http://www.wisgolfer.com/wi-classic-golf-courses.html